 Magicians way adept initiation |
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 Aug 3 2004, 01:09 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,403  |
When a magicians way adept initiates do they gain a metamagical technique in addition to a power point or do they have to choose between the two?
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Aug 3 2004, 01:12 AM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No. They have to choose between them. They really get the shaft when it comes to initiation.
You can find a more detailed answer here. It's basically just a clarification of the stuff in MitS. |
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Aug 3 2004, 01:14 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,403 |
ta very much, also what is the general consensus on the reflecting meta technique as it sounds pretty damn useful to me.
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Aug 3 2004, 01:18 AM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Mechanically? Shielding trumps it for purposes of protection. There's no comparison. Roleplaying-wise? It's totally groovy... nothing like snagging an opponents spell and hurling it right back at 'em. :)
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Aug 3 2004, 03:52 AM
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#5
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Of course it can also be bloody annoying if you're evil enough. Team is hired to snatch magical researcher, burst in on her at home only for her to throw off a manabolt at the mage who's in the lead. Mage is trying out his nifty new reflecting power he got last session and promptly reflects it right back onto the target who hadn't had a chance to raise her spell defence yet. Cue frantic attempts at first aid and magical healing whilst they try and exit the place. :D
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Aug 3 2004, 02:36 PM
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#6
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Note to self *scribble* *scribble* |
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Aug 3 2004, 02:37 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 751 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca Member No.: 2,853 |
personally I hate the rules for PhysMage, sure yo can create a potent character but saying that you can't leatn metamag tech? whats that all about ? I say they should be able to learn, why? well you are just learning a technique.
And there are many ways to learn Meta, Astral Quest, another intiate, or a free spirit. So just fora Physmage o talk to one of these sources he has to spend the Karma just to learn it. Sorry but in my games Physmages can learn the Tech cause the cannon Rules are retarded. |
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Aug 3 2004, 03:25 PM
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#8
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Um he CAN learn it, he just cant learn a technique and gain a magic point during the same initiation, he has to choose between them.
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Aug 3 2004, 04:53 PM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yeah, but an ordinary adept gets both. But the poor physical magician, simply because he bought the Magical Power adept power, is somehow mentally retarded when he initiates and can only learn one or the other, even though his increase in Magic has no effect on his Magical Power whatsoever unless he spends power points on improving it.
If being able to buy Magical Power didn't cost more build points or was the same Priority as a typical adept, I can see some kind of limitation like that. But as it stands, they get shafted both ways and the whole initiation bit just doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever. |
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Aug 3 2004, 05:13 PM
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#10
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
The "Poor" physical magician, who has all the powers of an adept and most of a mage. The Poor Physical Magician chose his path, and should face the consequences. I don't feel that his really only fault should be mitigated. He chose his path. If the player was not willing to play with the consequences of his choices maybe he shouldn't play a physical magician.
In short, I feel it is balanced just fine. |
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Aug 3 2004, 05:19 PM
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#11
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I don't mind penalties that make at least some amount of sense. This one doesn't.
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Aug 3 2004, 05:28 PM
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#12
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,301 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
The same poor physical magician who is described as a (full) magician who exchanged some of his normal power to access the Adept powers (thus giving up projection and astral perception for free), albeit the rules making him an Adept who gains access to a magician's skills (So rules and ingame description are heavily opposed!). The same poor physical magician who happens to cost the same as a full magician.
Yeah, right ...
Nice ... then I feel that the FAQ shouldn't say something about Adepts of the magician's way that actually isn't in the rules ...
Ingame? Yes, he went from full mage to mage with Adept powers, thus already giving up some advantages: Free astral perception, astral projection, metaplanar projection (inlcuding all karmic prize reductions) ...
Or maybe the player would like to play with "the rules as written" and not with "rules as commonly interpreted and sanctioned via FAQ"?
In short, I don't ... |
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Aug 3 2004, 05:32 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
The way I've always interpreted it is that the PhysMage increases his magic power by the very act of initiating, and then, in addition to the normal options available to an initiating mage of altering astral sig or gaining a metamagical technique, the Physmage can choose to instead gain a power point. This interpretation is based on the fact that things like power foci increase the effective magic attribute granted by magic power, and doesnt seem to be in contradiction of the wording.
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Aug 3 2004, 05:32 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 751 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Hamilton.LTG.on.ca Member No.: 2,853 |
Thank the Great D, for house rules.
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Aug 3 2004, 05:34 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Technically, the rules do say it but are poorly worded as if often the case. MitS p. 24: "If a magician adept initiates, she can choose to either gain an extra Power Point or learn a metamagic technique." The controversy before the FAQ came out was that some people read the "extra" as "in addition to the one they would normally get" which, in and of itself, would be insanely powerful. But instead of just errata'ing that sentence away, they decided to cripple magician adepts in an illogical fashion. |
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Aug 3 2004, 05:38 PM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If they were a magician first, that would make a lot of sense. They would, in fact, be magicians giving up some of their power to learn adept powers. But as it stands, they're regular adepts (who gain a Magic Point, a Power Point, and a Metamagic Technique with each initiation) who get shafted with each grade. I don't know why they overcomplicated the rules here. If they had simply came up with a mechanic where a normal magician could sacrifice their Astral Projection and/or a point of effective Magic in exchange for the ability to buy a few adept powers with their spell points (maybe 10 SP per PP) during character creation, it would not only allow that interpretation of their initiations to make a lot more sense, but would also allow them to be as diverse as other magicians -- including aspected physical magicians. But it's currently all a convolted, confused mess. Bleh. |
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Aug 3 2004, 05:44 PM
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#17
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Semantics. you should be in politics. :D The adept that has fill access to adept powers, and for a paltry 5 generation points gains full access to sorcery and summoning. Both views are correct, and both are in line with each other, it's just a matter of perception.
The adept does not "give up" astral projection and perception. The adept never has access to those powers normally. He is after all, an adpet with mage skills, not a mage with adept abilities. This is a very important distinction. He was never a mage, and he never gave up any abilities. The ability to spellcast and summon is an adept power.
I'm not sure what you are referring to here, My group has always interpreted adept initiation exactly as it is in the book. What is your issue with the rules? Do you think the FAQ is an incorrect interpretation or do you just not like the rules in the book?
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Aug 3 2004, 05:56 PM
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#18
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,301 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
The way I read it, it doesn't say it, not even in a poor wording ...
I do know where this "insanely" powerful interpretation came from. And the reasons why I'd still interpret the word extra as really "extra" are pretty simple: 1. The sentence before the one you just quoted deals with the 20 Karma rule for adepts of the magician's way that would allow normal adepts to gain extra power points => Within context, it's no surprise to see a special rule on this issue for a special adept type 2. This rule creates an "either or" connection between a power point an a metatechnique which is fine and dandy. Unfortunately the rules on initiation do know only one option that even involves metatechniques. And that's option 1 of three in total. This first option provides an increase of magic rating and the chance of learning a metatechnique. The increase of magic rating does provide a new power point. So there's the connection "magic rating / power point". This connection is not touched by the connection made on p. 24. => I'm still saying that the rules as written do say: Initiate, chose option 1, get magic + 1, thus get 1 power point and now choose between learing technique or getting extra power point ... I'm not saying that I like that interpretation better than the one in the FAQ! Actually I do't like either one. I'm totally in favour of letting them initiate just as other magicians ...
That's why I said: FAQ sanctioned interpretation, that is commonly used, but still doesn't really go along with what is written ... |
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Aug 3 2004, 05:57 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
I guess I just choose to not see it like that. They are neither magicians giving up some power to be more like adepts nor *regular* adepts gaining a taste of the power of magicians who must make a similar sacrifice - rather, they just are what they are, a different type of awakened character that manages to blur the line between two of the more common varieties. Regular adepts can not spend karma to gain magic power in-game: that power is a quality that separates physmages from all other adepts. As such, I dont mind that they have initiation mechanics separate and different from both normal adepts and mages. I respect the opinion many people share that physmages need extra regulation to keep them balanced, but I dont share it. Having to choose between advancing as an adept or gaining the full benefits of initiation as a mage is enough for me. |
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Aug 3 2004, 06:02 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Most of the time, power points seem to be much more useful to physads than magic points are to mages. There are only a few things that the magic rating directly impacts, and even then the additional magic is only one factor among several. Magic rating is included in calculating spell pool, but you'd have to initiate 3 times to increase your spell pool by 1. It can be a much bigger deal to add 4 counterstrike dice.
The real value to mages in initiating is the metamagics. Masking, Centering, and Shielding all kick major booty, and make up for the fact that going from magic = 6 to magic = 7 is mostly meaningless. But a physmage gets the best of both worlds. Increases in his power points hugely impact his power level, and also getting access to the uber-metamagics can potentially make him way more powerful than the other characters. Granted, he's not able to project, but that's not always an overwhelming obsticle, and is necessary to keep him from possessing any astral thing that moves without breaking a sweat (possession metamagic+enhance skill(unarmed)=scary). The only thing that really holds him back is making him advance more slowly by making him choose between power points and metamagics. |
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Aug 3 2004, 06:03 PM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
But that's just it. They don't get to make that choice. Ever. Adepts get a magic point, a power point, and a metamagic technique. A magician adept never gain those benefits with any single initiation. Traditional magicians gain a magic point, an effective power point for Magical Power, and a metamagic technique with each initiation. Magician adepts always get shafted with each initiation no matter which perspective you look at them through. And there is no good reason to explain the mechanic. |
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Aug 3 2004, 06:04 PM
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#22
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,301 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
No, not just semantics. It's in the rules .. Unfortunately I don't have my MitS in reach to give a full quote ...
That's the rule part of it. But not the description of adepts of the magician's way ...
And that's the part where you are wrong. They are described as magican's who have devoted some of their magical powers to adept powers and not as adepts that have sudden access to magical skills ...
Of course it is. Unfortunately your version doesn't fit with the desciption given for Adepts of the magican's way ...
He sure is a magician who has channeled some of his magic into adept powers.
Only in terms of game mechanisms ...
See previous post of mine ...
Incorrect interpretation of the rules as written. But the rules as written aren't better either ... |
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 Aug 3 2004, 06:49 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
After chargen, I blur the distinction between magical power and the magic attribute. I effectively treat it in a similar the same way i treat the body attribute of a character with dermal whatever - I list it as Magic 4[8] or something similar, with the second number being your magic attribute for the sole purpose of determining maximum rank in applicable adept powers (magic power included). Initiation increases both, just as spending karma to increase your body would. When you initiate, you can choose, instead of learning a metamagic technique, to gain a power point. That power point can then be applied to increase your you magic power - changing that 4[8] to a 5[8], for example - or it can be used to gain/improve other adept powers. I'll go ahead and say at this point that I am perfectly comfortable with my take on this, and arguments that nitpick on details of the canon wording will not sway me. If you find this to be horribly unbalanced, or if you feel that it strays too far from what you think canon to be, then ignore it. I dont mind. Edit: goddamn smileys. As a note, I find that under my interpretation the word "extra" as applied to choosing a power point seems appropriate This post has been edited by Jason Farlander: Aug 3 2004, 07:00 PM |
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Aug 3 2004, 07:00 PM
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#24
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
For purposes of this example, I'm going to assume an adept purchased six levels of Magical Power during character creation. Magician Adept: Magic 6 (Magical Power 6) Grade 1: Magic 7 (Magical Power 6) + Metamagic Technique OR: Magic 7 (Magical Power 6) + Power Point OR: Magic 7 (Magical Power 7) + Nothing. Now compare this to a normal adept. Adept: Magic 6. Grade 1: Magic 7 + Power Point + Metamagic Technique. Now compare this to a traditional magician. Magician: Magic 6. Grade 1: Magic 7 (effective Magical Power 7) + Metamagic Technique. The magician adept gets shafted no matter which perspective you look at it from. Yes, they have versatility, but they pay for that in other ways already (lack of Astral Projection for one), higher sensitivity to Magic Loss, and etc. Even if they just treated them like a normal adept, it would make sense. They could use the power point to improve Magical Power or obtain/improve some other adept power. No net gain would be given over other magicians, nor would they be penalized for no other reason than "just because." On top of the balance issues, the penalty just doesn't make any sense. *Why* do they have trouble initiating more than *any* other magician? Because they have to split their focus between two different fields? That's already covered by the fact that they have to acquire and improve their Magical Skills as well as buy Magical Power instead of some other adept powers. It's just... I dunno. |
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Aug 3 2004, 07:08 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Actually, in my scheme it would work like this:
Magician Adept: Magic Power 6 (Magic 6) Grade 1: Magic Power 7 (Magic 7) + Metamagic Technique OR Magic Power 7 (Magic 7) + Power point. There is no third option in this case, because Magic Power can not be increased beyond the overall Magic attribute. In fact, I would eliminate the distinction if the two ever became equal, because they would never have the opportunity to become unequal thereafter. A better example of what I'm talking about would be if the Physmage only spent 5 points on Magic Power: Magician Adept: Power 5 (Magic 6) Grade 1: Magic Power 6 (Magic 7) + Metamagic Technique OR Power 6 (Magic 7) + Power Point OR Magic 7 |
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