Help me understand guns better

Help me understand guns better, It makes the game world better

Options

Raygun

Aug 8 2004, 07:07 PM

Post #26

Mostly Harmless

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 937
Joined: 26-February 02
From: 44.662,-63.469
Member No.: 176

QUOTE (littlesean)

HOLY CRAP!! Raygun, you are saying that gun is real? I put it up as a joke to see how many I could catch, and it looks like I just got caught! :wobble:

As much as I'd hesitate to say that anything on Birdman's site is real, the Maadi-Griffin .50 BMG pistol is real. This particular one is the shortest barreled Maadi-Griffin I've seen, which gives me pause in suggesting that it isn't a doctored picture. Here's another picture of it.

This one, however, is real.

The site that had the pictures of the girl firing it is no longer up, unfortunately. I'll try to get in touch with some other people who might have it.

QUOTE (VoceNoctum)

The fun of pistol calibers in longer barrels is the powder is mostly done by the end of even a 16" barrel. My 45 with 16" barrel has no flash, and barely any noise at all. (Even less in 3 months...)

Exaggerating just a tad there, dude.

.45 ACP hardball through a 16" barrel will still produce enough muzzle flash to see clearly at night and well over 140 dB (threshold of pain) of sound pressure. There wouldn't be a lot of doubt that it's a gun being fired if you're within a few hundred meters of it in the open. If you've ever heard a Thompson being fired, another 5.5 inches of barrel doesn't make it sound much different than that.

QUOTE

You know, I'm sure there's ballistic differences for .223/5.56 out there in 24/20/16/14.5/7" barrels, probably on AR15.com somewhere. Probably give a better idea of real velocity loss.

Well, M855 through an M16A2 (20" barrel) is often quoted at 3100 fps. Through an M4 (14.5") it's quoted at 2,900 fps (that's 36.3 fps/inch). Colt quotes 2,611 fps from the 11.5" M4 Commando (96.3 fps/inch from 14.5" to 11.5").

I would expect that with the .50 BMG using the extremely slow-burning powders it's designed to, the difference in velocity between a 29" barrel and a 6-8" barrel would be more than what we've previously guessed. Probably closer to 2,000-2,100 fps.

VoceNoctum

Aug 8 2004, 11:04 PM

Post #27

Target

Group: Members
Posts: 74
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 150

QUOTE (Raygun)

Exaggerating just a tad there, dude.

.45 ACP hardball through a 16" barrel will still produce enough muzzle flash to see clearly at night and well over 140 dB (threshold of pain) of sound pressure. There wouldn't be a lot of doubt that it's a gun being fired if you're within a few hundred meters of it in the open. If you've ever heard a Thompson being fired, another 5.5 inches of barrel doesn't make it sound much different than that.

On the "no flash" I may have exagerated, true. But, they did light tests for some of them, trying to show that a Sound Suppresor didn't count as a flash suppresor for 9mm/45 because of the lack of flash from a flash to start with. ATF ruled that the device was still a flash hider, since it was designed to hide flash, no matter effectiveness for that caliber.

For the sound, it doesn't eliminate the noise, but it is barely audible with hearing protection on at the outdoor range. The AR's "sproing" noise is as loud as the gun firing. (to the shooter) and I've had folks think it was suppresed before.

Kesh

Aug 9 2004, 03:17 AM

Post #28

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 293
Joined: 27-January 03
From: Kentucky, USA
Member No.: 3,958

QUOTE (Raygun)

QUOTE (Kesh)

How about the .454 Casull? I know that's going into revolver rounds, now, instead of autos, but I'm curious. Interesting thing is that it's apparently the smallest caliber recommended for handguns if you're travelling in bear country, according to some guys I knew in Alaska.

You likely could get away with less, but the .454 provides some insurance against the big bears and it provides it in the same kind of package you're likely to find the chambered for the .44 Magnum. Lots of energy, lots of pressure, lots of muzzle blast, lots of recoil. One nice thing about the .454 Casull is that it is based on the .45 Colt cartridge, which means that guns chambered for it can also fire the .45 Colt. Less energy, but far more fun to shoot if you're planning on shooting a lot, i.e. practice.

:eek:

Just to clarify: a .45 Colt is slightly different from a .45 ACP, correct? So, a .454 would not fit in, say, a M1911?

BitBasher View Member Profile	Aug 9 2004, 03:23 AM Post #29
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	IIRC ACP stands for Automatic Colt Pistol, so I believe they refer to the same thing.

VoceNoctum

Aug 9 2004, 03:45 AM

Post #30

Target

Group: Members
Posts: 74
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 150

QUOTE (Kesh)

Just to clarify: a .45 Colt is slightly different from a .45 ACP, correct? So, a .454 would not fit in, say, a M1911?

45 Colt (45 Long Colt) is a revolver round (cowboy guns mainly now adays) and is totally different from 45 acp, yeah.

454 won't fit in a 45 colt, since it's longer, but 45 colt will fit in a 454 since it's shorter.

Raygun

Aug 9 2004, 08:45 AM

Post #31

Mostly Harmless

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 937
Joined: 26-February 02
From: 44.662,-63.469
Member No.: 176

QUOTE (VoceNoctum)

On the "no flash" I may have exagerated, true. But, they did light tests for some of them, trying to show that a Sound Suppresor didn't count as a flash suppresor for 9mm/45 because of the lack of flash from a flash to start with. ATF ruled that the device was still a flash hider, since it was designed to hide flash, no matter effectiveness for that caliber.

Sorry. I didn't see that sound or flash suppressors were part of the equasion in the statement of yours I was replying to. What I understood was .45 ACP + 16" barrel = no flash. Which is false. A Ruger 10/22 with an 18" barrel makes noticeable flash in the kind of ambient light you're likely to see muzzle flash in. .45 ACP from a 16" barrel makes a bigger flash than that. At least, as long as you're not using powders with flash suppressants.

QUOTE

For the sound, it doesn't eliminate the noise, but it is barely audible with hearing protection on at the outdoor range.

I've had no problems hearing a Mech-Tech or a CX4 going off while wearing hearing protection at an outdoor range. They're definitely not as loud as pistols, but it's not too difficult to figure out that a gun is being fired, either. At least not in my experience.

Again, apparently a misunderstanding. It looked to me as if you meant to suggest that a pistol-caliber carbine makes no apparent flash and almost no noise to be picked up by anyone in the area of the shooting. While I'm doing the shooting, how much flash and noise I can see and hear from my own gun is pretty low on the priority list of things I pay attention to, so I wasn't thinking along those lines.

QUOTE (Kesh)

Just to clarify: a .45 Colt is slightly different from a .45 ACP, correct? So, a .454 would not fit in, say, a M1911?

Just to make this crystal clear... You are correct.

The .45 Colt is a rimmed revolver cartridge that was designed for Colt's Single Action Army revolver in 1873. Because its case has a rim, it is difficult to make function reliably in automatic pistols. It originally use 40 grains of FFFg black powder to fire a 255 grain lead round nosed bullet @ 900 fps (458 fpe) from a 5" Colt 1873 SAA. The case is 1.29" long, bullet diameter is .454, OAL is 1.60".

Make the .45 Colt case 0.1" longer and the case walls a bit thicker, then load with heavier bullets to extremely high pressures and you have the .454 Casull (aka .454 Magnum Revolver). Again, it's a rimmed cartridge designed for use in revolvers. Dick Casull and Jack Fulmer began development in 1957 and it was first introduced to the public in 1959. With this one, you're looking at top load of a 335 grain hard cast bullet @ 1,600 fps (1904 fpe). Bullets go up to 360 grains. Oof. The case is, you guessed it, 1.39" long, bullet diameter is .454, OAL is 1.70".

The .45 ACP was designed by John Browning for the model 1905 pistol he also designed under contract with Colt. Eventually, that design evolved into the model 1911. The .45 ACP uses a rimless case designed for use in automatic pistols. The original M1911 load consisted of a 230 grain FMJ @ 855 fps (373 fpe). With +P loads, you can get up to about 1140 fps with a 185 grain bullet (543 fpe). The case is 0.898" long, bullet diameter is .452, OAL is 1.17".

There are a few beefed-up versions of the .45 ACP, namely the .45 Super (thicker case loaded to higher pressures) and the .460 Rowland (thicker case, .059" longer, higher pressures), which is basically the .45 ACP equivalent of the .45 Colt/.454 Casull upshot.

Kesh View Member Profile	Aug 10 2004, 02:22 AM Post #32
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958	Gotcha. Thanks for your patience, Raygun. :)

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »