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> chemistery, stuff, not to do with the skill
xizor
post Aug 6 2004, 04:37 AM
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1 a *Spray Tank*, when used to fire freeze foam does it get 2 shots ( one litter each same as the water cannon) or the listed 20 shots?
1B if the actual shot contains less material, would the barrier it creates be weaker?

2 darts,
if a character gets shot with a narcojet dart, (resisting the damage as normal,) and does not yank out the dart, would the char have to resist the toxin again?

2B why are darts so damn expensive ? is it because they are reusable?

2C do darts have a damage code? or even a power level?

[EDIT]
whoops, dumb mistake, thank you Fygg Nuuton
they were on the same page...
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Fygg Nuuton
post Aug 6 2004, 05:10 AM
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well a splat gun cannot shoot freeze foam simply because its a foam-like substance
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RedmondLarry
post Aug 6 2004, 05:38 AM
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2. No, a dart containing narcoject will not give an additional dose at a subsequent time. The impact of the dart forced out all of the compound there is, and depending upon how good the shot was, more or less of the compound got into the blood stream.

2C. No, we don't give the dart itself a damage code or power rating. The darts have low velocity and low range, and much of the energy of the dart's travel was transformed into pushing the compound out the needle end. Capsule rounds, on the other hand, travel fast enough to have Gel Round damage effects.
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Dashifen
post Aug 6 2004, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (OurTeam)
Capsule rounds, on the other hand, travel fast enough to have Gel Round damage effects.

Mother! I never knew that ...... note to self :eek:
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xizor
post Aug 6 2004, 03:31 PM
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so the way that some people envision the darts is as a flying hyperdermic needle?
i thought that they were a sharp object ( insert picture of the camino flying saber dart used by "Jango Fett" in episode 2 starwars) that lodged in the flesh of the intended target.

dart rounds are something that i think should cause damage,
-blow darts they do no damage for a pin prick wound ( basically you have this pin with a bit of feather attached to it sticking out of your arm. for some un explainable reason the darts weigh nothing?
- dart rounds are heaver and travel farther faster. *the way i think of them* i don't see them just doing a pin prick wound. i do not on the other hand see them doing more than light damage (4-5L for darts from pistol, and 7-9 L for darts from rifle, protected by 1/2 impact armor and not staged up if a toxin is used)
[EDIT i did look up the damage of the blow darts, and i am mistaken they do no damage. and rearranged to make sensible]

now the reason that i thought that a char shot with a dart should resist the toxin again was because *i think* that it would still be dissolving into the blood stream. i do accept that the toxin will not have the same effect, but at a dirasticly reduced effect (-2 power/ -1 damage level) pere speed period left exposed. this would also apply to any weapon which is coated in toxin that is left in the wound ie knives

thank you for the responses so far :)
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Dashifen
post Aug 6 2004, 04:11 PM
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I always imagined the dart as a needle. The injected substance sits in the the back of the dart. When the dart is stopped, a plunger in the back of the dart forces the injected substance out of the dart and into the target. I decided this made sense to me because I could never understand, before I thought off this, why impact armor reduced the power of the toxin; since the armor would slow down the needle, some of the injected substance would inevitable be deposited in the armor until the needle penetrated and became stuck in the target's body.
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xizor
post Aug 6 2004, 04:38 PM
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have you ever had a thorn stick into you through a set of work gloves?
the thorn didn't go very deep did it? (it still hurt.... )

now if you hadn't been wearing those gloves...
the thorn would have gone a lot deeper :ouch:

think of impact armor as a protective layer (the glove in this example),
think of the dart as a sharp pointy object with out an edge (the thorn in this example).

so we have two cases as presented above, in one we have a thorn going through a work glove (example A) and in the other we have a thorn just going into your hand (example B).

in example A there is less thorn/dart in your body, and less surface area to receive the toxin from.

in example B there is more thorn/dart in your body, and more surface area to receive the toxin from.

thats how i see it,
could you explain how the hyperdermic dart accelerates without spraying the toxin every where?
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Dashifen
post Aug 6 2004, 04:50 PM
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Sure -- the injection mechanism is released during a sharp negative acceleration (assuming forward motion -- the direction of the needle is positive). In this way, when the dart is fired, it doesn't release the toxin.

Look at it this way. In the gun, the dart is at rest, so when it's accellerated out of the gun, the substance and mechanisms within would want to stay at rest and would, therefore, be "pulled" to the rear end of the needle. However, upon hitting the target, the needle's forward momentum would help to "push" the substance out through the needle and into the target.
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xizor
post Aug 6 2004, 05:50 PM
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ok so the plunger is not at the rear of the dart, there is something behind it.
that makes a bit more sense now, i still dont like it but it makes more sense.

i was thinking that the plunger was the thing farthest back, (like a needle) and that it was alunched from a spring or something...

different ideas are always good

ps what do you think of how i described impact armor affecting the power of ingection vector drugs?
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Dashifen
post Aug 6 2004, 08:40 PM
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You're way is more simple, just not how I saw it the first time I read the rules.
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RedmondLarry
post Aug 6 2004, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (xizor)
[even a turn later] *i think* that [a toxin] would still be dissolving into the blood stream. i do accept that the toxin will not have the same effect, but at a dirasticly reduced effect (-2 power/ -1 damage level) pere speed period left exposed. this would also apply to any weapon which is coated in toxin that is left in the wound ie knives

You are right, in real life it takes some time for toxins delivered by dart, skin contact, through the lungs, or through the stomach to take full effect.

In the game we simplify almost all drugs into just a single resistance roll at the end of the "Speed" time period. We have simple rules for when another "dose" is received before the "Speed" period comes, and for when another "dose" is received later. We have targets dropping unconscious within 3 seconds, without the drugs really risking their lives. All these aren't very real-world like, but it makes for a fun game. In your game you can extend these rules or modify them to make them more realistic if you wish.
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xizor
post Aug 7 2004, 03:13 AM
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one more question,
about how much volume is considered a dose?
as far as i have figgered it out it is somewhere between a film of toxin on a blade and a tenth of a liter

thinking about making some smaller chemistery delivery systems, like a can of pepper spray and the all new micro version :spin:
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RedmondLarry
post Aug 7 2004, 06:12 AM
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We know a dose is small enough to fit in a capsule round and pass through the barrel of a firearm.
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Ol' Scratch
post Aug 7 2004, 06:22 AM
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M&M p. 105 basically describes a dose the way it describes most things in the game: An abstract number that's just enough to produce the game effect. Anything bigger than what you would be able to squeeze into a capsule round or dart is usually labeled in ways other than "dose" such as "kilogram" or "liter."
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xizor
post Aug 7 2004, 05:16 PM
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so a dose is just a resonable amount, not any direct figger.
that makes things easer :grinbig:

is there a need for some smaller and more varied chemistery delivery systems?
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Capt. Dave
post Aug 8 2004, 08:10 PM
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The closest measurement SR gives is 1 dose = 1/10th of a liter (pg. 117, M&M)
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littlesean
post Aug 9 2004, 02:57 PM
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I realize that is what the book mentions, but a 10th of a liter???. To put this in perspective, Nyquil (Much slower and not as powerful, I know, but it is still the coughing, sneezing, fever, how the hell did I end up on the kitchen floor, medicine) takes only 1 oz. 1/10th of a liter is about 3.3 oz and it is being injected? For sodium pentothal, the average adult dosage for surgery is 50 milligrams over 30 minutes. When Timothy McVeigh was executed, the first thing they injected him with was Sodium pentothal and he was given 5 grams. 100 times the dose listed above. More than enough to kill him. Now I am going to assume something. I am assuming that 1 liter of sodium pentothal is roughly equal to 1 kilogram. As a side note, with pure water they are exactly equal.

So 1/10th of a liter is 100 grams, 20 times the lethal injection amount used by the US government, and 2000 times the dose used to put someone under for surgery.

Whooo! Who needs gamma scop?

Heck, you could probably get some interesting results from just pumping that much Nyquil into their bloodstream!
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Austere Emancipa...
post Aug 9 2004, 03:07 PM
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You should absolutely not assume that 1/10th of a liter is a reasonable doseage of any drug. It's more likely to work as a "dose" of splat glue or pesticide or something. Like someone already said, just use One Dose = A Reasonable Amount Of The Chemical In Question.
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