 Thermobaric grenades and rifle rounds |
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 Aug 11 2004, 05:07 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 4-February 03 Member No.: 4,007  |
Well, it seems that guns are getting a hell of alot more dangerous in real life. Soon to a soldier near your... fuel air explosive grenades and rifle rounds.
http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0%2C210...58094%2C00.html http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...tions/m1018.htm Part of me would be interested in game statistics for this stuff. Part of me really wishes I never saw these articles. The GM part of me just can't wait to see the players faces when I say, "OK, now lets roll to see if any of your special ammo cooked off because of that last blast." Pel |
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Aug 11 2004, 05:25 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 20-June 04 Member No.: 6,423 |
You know this stuffs been around for years. It just means the U.S. will be the second Western nation to adopt thermobaric infantry weapons. The Russians and the Chinese have been somewhat of pioneers in the field of thermobaric weapons, and the British were the first Western nation to give them a serious look.
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Aug 11 2004, 05:29 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
No rifle rounds, absolutely no rifle rounds, just like there are no HE rifle rounds (well, there're the .50s, but those are strictly armor piercing ammunition, which thermobaric effects are useless for). These articles discuss rockets and grenade launcher rounds, and the XM1018 is certainly not thermobaric. Also, thermobaric does not equal FAE.
http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocent..._4_1_03-06.html Those are two different things. My understanding of physics is not sufficient to explain why. Read the linked article. Yes, these are probably more effective than conventional HE munitions for several uses, especially in combat in built-up areas. However, you really don't need game statistics for stuff like this. Considering how readily blast damage is reflected off walls in SR you could even consider most grenades to already use thermobaric explosives. |
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Aug 11 2004, 05:35 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
oh, come on. we all know that in real life, FAE is used for levelling buildings, just like it is in SR. weee! my brain is upside-down!
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Aug 11 2004, 05:37 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
That's what I was going to say. Since the exact composition and function of SR explosives (and other rounds) are not detailed [1], you could very well say SR grenades and other bang-bangs are thermobaric munitions. Or you could say the IP grenades are, but regular ones are not. Whatever fluff works for you. [1] With the exception of the lame bronze-cored AV rounds, which have too much detail. |
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Aug 11 2004, 05:43 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I have to say, that Wired article was just a wee bit too sensational for my tastes in credibility. Also, the XM29 is dead. Didn't anyone tell them?
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Aug 11 2004, 05:45 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
And there's C-4 too. But that's easily explained away by how a kilogram of it won't hurt anybody more than a meter away and thus cannot possibly reflect to hurt someone behind a corner. Umm, yeah. I'm with you, mfb! |
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Aug 11 2004, 05:50 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 20-June 04 Member No.: 6,423 |
Actually, FAE equals thermobaric (or really volumetric weapons, they belong to the same family). The second to last line in the first paragraph of that linked article to the Aus. DoD mentions it. Thermo = heat, Baric = pressure. The heat of the explosion over a large area creates an intense pressure wave. The Russians like to call them vaporization bombs (since the fuel is vaporized into the air before detonation) or, more commonly, vacuum bombs. You don't get burned unless your at ground zero, you get crushed by the shockwave. For SR effects, treat as per FAE rules on M&M p112. I usually made the RPO-A using 4 liters of Rating 10 FAE, and putting it on a rocket engine. That would produce a 1m inital blast radius with 20D damage, then -1 Power/m radiating out. So the actual blast range turns out to be something like 42m in diameter. Arethusa, you said it. No mention at all that We (i.e Americans) aren't the first to use this technology. Also, the bursting munition rifle component is be resurrected as the XM25, while the KE rifle is being developed as the XM8. The current plan is to use them seperately. BTW, 25mm thermobaric shells? While 2 to 4 liters of underoxided fuel makes sense, I'm not sure what two tablespoons full of the stuff's going to do. It doesn't seem like a whole lot of munitions. Granted the Russians got 30mm grenades loaded with the stuff, but those are much larger than the warheads on the XM29/XM25/XM303 25mm shells. |
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Aug 11 2004, 06:01 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I wouldn't expect much out of the 25mm platform. Suppository explosives may be nice for precision work, but it seems more than likely to me that lots of people will be longing for good old 40mm as soon as the M25 hits.
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Aug 11 2004, 06:18 PM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
suppository explosives? like that scene in Man on Fire?
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Aug 11 2004, 07:00 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I had always understood this to be the difference between FAE and thermobaric: FAEs first release a rapidly expanding aerosol cloud, which then detonates. The burn speed of the explosives is very, very slow, and there is some "afterburn" effect. Thermobaric explosives detonate right away with a rather slow burn speed and there is significant "afterburn" effect. However, it seems a whole lot of people use the terms interchangeably, and it is damn near impossible to get hard, technical data on how exactly all the different weapons work, so I'll admit that I may well have been wrong. And you'll be better of forgetting about the SR FAEs. With the canon rules, you should never buy more than the minimum possible amount (your GM shall rue the day he agreed to sell it 1 gram at a time), and then of the highest rating stuff you can get, going for hand grenades instead unless you can get them at at least rating 10 or more. |
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