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> [ShadowsOfEurope] Spain review, Okay, I can't wait anymore........
Sepherim
post Aug 13 2004, 10:04 PM
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That more or less sums it all. I've been seeing reviews on most countries by now, but there have been so little comments regarding Spain that my anxiety is reaching un-healthy levels. So, since it has worked before, I thought I should open the thread. :D

So, guys, where do you want to hit first?
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Skeptical Clown
post Aug 14 2004, 01:13 PM
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It's not bad. I like the conflict between three different kinds of totalitarian philosophies--religion, military, and corporate--all struggling for dominance, while the anarchists and leftists lurk in the shadows. The struggle for the throne is, eh, ok. Galicia seems a bit too good to be true. There's not much feel for Euskal Herria. I'll post more if I can think of anything.
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Snow_Fox
post Aug 15 2004, 02:02 AM
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Aw, we could have kept him twisting in the wind a little longer. :wobble:

For the most part I liked it. A land so royally screwed over by wars and natural disasters That the people seem bitter and the handling of the church gives far more of a reason for antimeta-prejudice than most places.
You're also the only writer (ever)who seemed to adress the problems created among the faithful by the church's complete about face on metas. Like the song says "You've got to be taught to hate and fear, it's got to be whispered in your dear little ear." Here were people getting pounded on, "freaks" appear in their midst and they are given the go ahead to hate by the followers of the prince of peace, so it gets well set in the minds before they are told, "no go the other way now."

Interestingly the problems I have with Spain are the exact opposite of my problems with Hollend. lots on people but felt I was missing something in the coprs, but that is easily made up.

I would also ask, What about Gibralter? The spanish would like it back but the people, in the last ballot voted 98% against anything to do with Madrid. In RL they just celebrated 300 years of British rule and delight in pointing out that they have been ruled longer by London, than they had been by Madrid.
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BIG BAD BEESTE
post Aug 15 2004, 03:18 PM
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Well, SoE states that it is still under British rule - UK Chapter and the Europe map in the front. Also, it being a strategic point for access between the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean, I would visualise the Royal Navy wanting to make an effort of keeping it under British rule. Maybe the UK struck a deal with Spain to patrol the area and offer a first line of defence against another Jihad from North Africa?

What do you reckon Sepherim?
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Synner
post Aug 15 2004, 03:36 PM
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One possibility is that the continued possession of Gibralter was part of the deal struck with the British for covert military support in helping the Spanish strike behind AfA lines to knock over the fundamentalist government in Morrocco and placing the legitimate (moderate) king back on the throne.
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Ancient History
post Aug 15 2004, 04:11 PM
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Making the prince an ogre was a nice touch, although you really should have explained it to lay folks (Spanish royalty is related to the House of Hanover, right?)
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Nath
post Aug 15 2004, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 15 2004, 06:11 PM)
Spanish royalty is related to the House of Hanover, right?

The ogre must be the son of King Philip VI of Spain and Letizia of TVE. Philip VI is son of King John-Charles I of Spain (Juan Carlos if you prefer) and Sophia of Greece and Hannover. Sophia of Greece and Hannover is daughter of King Paul I of Greece and Frederika of Hannover. Frederika of Hannover was daughter of Prince Ernst August of Hannover and Victoria Louise of Prussia and hence, to shorten things a bit, a great-great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria. So, yeah, they're related. Well, I'm not sure there's a major house in Europe that can be related to all the other if you know where to look.
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Sepherim
post Aug 15 2004, 11:44 PM
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Well, there were far more details about the corps in our drafts (and three or four other corps were left out), but we had to free space. The corp faction was the one easier to understand quickly, and so, we thought it should get the short-straw. Besides, other countries in Europe were already quite corp-oriented, so it was natural to detail more the "local" things. ;)
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Snow_Fox
post Aug 16 2004, 01:07 AM
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I think the royal family of Spain is closer to Austria than Britain with the house of Hapsburg.
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Marynsar
post Aug 16 2004, 01:51 AM
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I finished reading it, and I like that part very much.

I would only say that I don't find Euskal Herria interresting, due to "lack of characterization" and "overcharacterization" (yeah, both). The average joe Runner with the "Beret basque" is not enough to make me look into it, and the lack of real cultural interest just makes me read over it. Don't get me wrong, thought Sepherim, it is not badly written, nor uninterresting, but I feel like you had not enough pages to devellop your full ideas (and that could be said for a lot of other countries, notably England and France).

I would sum up that by saying that you did a very good job, and i'm pretty sure you could really enhance that Spain chapter with some online goodies (that forest for example intrigues me a lot).

Since the review post for the whole SOE is clogged with digressions, I will add here my felicitations for the whole team, the book is a pleasure to read and really falls into my views of SR. Art is excellent as well, with only a few pieces that I don't like. My only regret is the lack of devellopement from what is written, I am hungering now for more. (a little shameless chauvinism here, well done French team, you did an impressive job allthough you overlooked my home town :D )

Sorry for the digression...

EDIT : 'Spell checking and wrong spelling of Sepherim's name :/
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Snow_Fox
post Aug 16 2004, 03:40 AM
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I like gibralter being british still in return for Brit support against the moors. And a British base there means the spanish don't have to stand alone if the moors return.

Now I'm wondering about the forests in northern spain and the mists in Brittany, both the north coasts and nature wiping out humanity's marks on the land, while the veil around Tir Na Nog fails. just a hint of threads I can't grasp.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jan 11 2005, 12:53 AM
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Just to tease Sepherim, I'm posting this to the "right" thread as a prelude for more serious discussion.


One thing to note is that the first thing I did when I got it was skip to the Spain & EH chapter because that was the country I was most interested in reading about. I was also interested in it because I was apprehensive about there even being a EH in SR. I was also intrigued at the dispute over the throne after having read about the outcome in SOTA64 already. The thing about that is that there is a nice big gap between SoE and SOTA64 which can explain the events which subsequently occurred almost anyway you like, and through almost any means you want to establish the given result. But back to Spain itself, I ended up rather enjoying the chapter, although I thought it was interesting that no one mentioned that the line of stones across northern Spain seemed to follow the main Camino de Santiago route. As for EH, my personal bias and the material produced a response eqv. to, "It could be worse, but it's playable." But there's still a damn lot of good stuff in that chapter alone, let alone things that aren't in it, but which could be important in and of themselves--like, I don't know, the presence and role of Opus Dei beyond the brief mention it got.
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Sepherim
post Jan 11 2005, 11:14 PM
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Hahahaha. So, as a prelude answer, let's go. ;)

First of all, I must say I'm flattered by your interest in the chapter, even before reading it. Seriously. Most people take SoE looking for England, Germany or France, it's always very nice to see that some people also go looking for Spain. :-)

As was said in the other forum, there was indeed a map somewhere that compared the menhir line and the old Camino de Santiago. Still, when I wrote it, I was only thinking partially along those lines. Indeed, the line of stones follows most of the path, but not necesarily all of it. In fact, the line of stones is more of a celtic origin, and was particulary stron inside the Forest (though people outside don't know it). Still, somehow, the christian influence over so many centuries has had some kind of influence on the line, and it stems toward the Camino. So, what is it's real nature? Is it celtic influenced? Or is it christian in nature, and celtic shrines modified it a bit? No one knows, as so many other things. But obviously, this was too long to even be thought of introducing in the chapter.

And Opus Dei deserved a whole section on it, that's for sur, but I thought it should be let by in order for more important things to be discussed. Most of the stuff can be deduced from the contents of the chapter, still, mostly from the information on the Church, but you can bet they have a strong hand inside the economic pie too. I would have liked to develop a bit more the New Jesuits, though...

Still, you must take into account that too much was lost in the way. Each of the Communities had its own background, unique in some ways (some more than others) and quite a few of them didn't make it into the final cut... :(
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jan 12 2005, 03:09 AM
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Too true about the edits. I can't even begin to imagine what you had to cut, and then what they cut while you weren't looking.

My interest lies in Spain for three reasons. 1) I'm a Dominguez, 2) I was living in Spain at the time the EuroSB project was starting up, and 3) I was the one who translated the first 20Q synopsis from Spanish to English for Synner and the EuroSBers.

And I've said too much on that.

In regard to the menhir lines--I figured it wasn't founded on the Camino, but it seemed like a cool idea that they just happened to follow a similar route. Had the cathedral not been underwater (as if it matters to the manasphere), I can only begin to imagine what kind of a background count it would have. The place already has an palpable sense of ... something, and the Camino has its own mystique.

While I'd like to have seen more about Opus Dei, I understand the need for sharp edits. However, the renewed interest in the RCC opens up the possibilities of all sorts of intrigue involving the RCC and its parishoners (sp?). The most immediate example that comes to mind is the last great Soviet mole, Robert Hanssen, and the fact that he was a member of Opus Dei.

Likewise, I can also appreciate the effort into the ACs, and the removal of some of the other Communities for space. But it just means more of an opportunity for me to do whatever I want to the rest of the country. Especially Madrid. :-)

As for Gibraltar... "We all live in a yellow submarine."
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Sepherim
post Jan 13 2005, 10:57 PM
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Well, you do have a point when you say that leaving some Communities undescribed leaves a lot of space for the master to opperate. I hadn't thought about that, but it does seem like a good option.

As for Santiago's Cathedral, I don't think it would loose it's background count for being underworld. Fish magicians will surely still have to deal with it. :grinbig:
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jan 14 2005, 04:14 AM
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Indeed. I'd like to think I can come up with some interesting ideas about running in the Islas Baleares or the Basque coastline. But mainly, I can do whatever I want with Madrid, and so I'm not that disappointed in the brevity of space devoted to individual locations.

Ah, no I didn't mean the cathedral wouldn't have a background count. I specifically mentioned that, AFAIK, magic doesn't care about whether something's underwater. It's just that it's not a simple matter of having the PCs walk inside and giving even a 0 Essence cybered-up death machine the chills.

However, it does beg the question: If all the major relics were removed, where'd they go?
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Synner
post Jan 14 2005, 08:29 AM
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Loose Alliances :evil:
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Sepherim
post Jan 14 2005, 04:44 PM
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You mean teaser. :P

Well, seems like Synner holds the ace up his sleave on this issue. I guess that time will tell where they've gone. I can only say that, as you say, the were removed from the Cathedral during the War, to use them as a call for the faith of the spaniards. After that... Toledo, maybe, but only maybe.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jan 14 2005, 06:49 PM
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Damn you, Synner. I could have made a whole campaign out of looking for them, right after we solved the mystery of the Nightwraith attack and the Lone Eagle incident!

Arrrgh!

I was thinking even Rome could work.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jan 15 2005, 09:10 PM
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Sorry. Will repost it when I am actually done with the review.

This post has been edited by Crimsondude 2.0: Jan 15 2005, 09:42 PM
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jan 16 2005, 08:34 AM
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Okay. Sorry. Done. For real, this time.

Review time. Personal thoughts to follow in another post.

Synner's Introduction

Cool. Especially if the most in-depth reading on Spain someone's had is reading Iberia.

Sepherim's Introduction
Good setup. Succint and foolproof.

Spain's Recent History
Sepherim's assessment is all-too-true from my own POV.

QUOTE (Spain Timeline)
Short, sweet, and to the point. Followed up well in the full text.


Dying Land, Reborn Land
Not surprised about the droughts in the south. The events in Austurias and Cantabria are pretty shocking, and I think the brevity of the fallout provides enough information to build a foundation, but leaves plenty of it open for exploration and GM fiat.

What happens next in the north makes the preceding events just weird, which is always a Good ThingTM. The Santiago Quake is really amazing, and it'd have been nice to expand upon the fallout from Santiago being swallowed up by the ocean. But, meh.

Race and Reason
Nice setup. Weaving the RCC events in with social issues and the reaction to the Awakening works very well here. Rather distressing, but perfectly reasonable under the circumstances. The events following Imago Dei follow the previous events in a logical and consistent manner, and are very interesting in developing the atmosphere in which a run or campaign would be set.

Crash and Control
The fallout from the Crash is just amazing. It works well, and it makes sense. I like the idea of "sporadic street battles" (148) even years later. It also makes sense when you consider the riots mentioned in PAoE and the reference to them in the Barcelona subchapter later on. I can't really find much basis in which to dispute the comments made by the shadowposters on 148.

The fallout after those comments is where, IMO, it could have gone to hell. Given the setup for Galicia in the previous page, it's actions seem understandable. It also works to explain the changes in the political structure which lead to Spain's modern-day government. The secession attempt by EH is to be expected. It's interesting to think about who was helping them out, and what they gained from a free Euskal Herria. Now, it's my understanding that Cantabria and La Rioja went with them. Is that right?

Merging Castilla y Leon, the Community of Madrid and Castilla La Mancha was a really cool idea. I don't know if the people from those communities would agree with me, but I like it.

QUOTE (Spain at a Glance)
Interesting breakdown. The "Major Languages Spoken" list is more than 100%. Do you seriously expect me to believe people speak more than one language? OTOH, Catholicism took a hell of a hit compared to today.


Jihad
This is a Big Deal part of the chapter IMO, and everything that comes to pass ties in nicely with the discussion of the AfA invasion in the beginning of SoE as well as the other chapters. It's also helpful to note the reaction of the people and the military response. The effect on Muslims was a nice touch, but it's a shame about what happened to Granada.

The Fall of Asturias
This is really cool. I love corruption, and the awakened forest is nicely done.

Nowadays
Don't like the word "nowadays." It sounds kind of... phony, or something. SURGE aftermath... no surprise. Tragedy, but not exactly shocking. I like the whole contest for the throne, especially since it incorporates all sorts of other plot hooks and contesting factions. It's also quite ripe for shadowruns given that something had to have happened between SoE and SOTA64.

Lights and Shades

Politics
The explanation of the process and the political parties is short but to the point and sufficiently informative. One thing is that like the reference to communities being equivalent to UCAS states, one thing I noticed when I returned was that they generally refer to the Spanish President as the Prime Minister (which is especially awkward, given that you have one of those, too) since it's sufficiently similar to the role of the British PM that, well, we're stupid. Sorry. Anyway, the breakdown of information on the parties is interesting, and gives a nice impression of the various factions in Spain. It's especially interesting to watch politics and policy conflict with reality. Good times. OTOH, there's something to note in the fact that Galicia Verde is the most left-wing of the major groups, and there isn't an IU anymore (or so it seems)-- a shame really. I'd have expected them to keep fighting the good fight, especially by not selling out and joining the Partido Liberal.

Policlubs
But... The FAI does fill the niche well. But my favorite group is the Islamic Renaissance Movement. This is a very cool group, and I like the implications that it presents that serious events are occurring that people don't even see. Events which tie into all manner of other threats and events going on the T6W... or at least, could be.

Law Enforcement
Pretty self-explanatory.

The Spanish Church
I'm going to have to gloss over most of this, because it relates more to thought than to review. From a review perspective, it is well-written and provides a goodly number of hooks, ideas, and innuendo. There's a lot of good information about the Catholic Church in Spain, and the conflicts between the conservatives and the Enlightened faction of the Vatican. It ties in well with the rest of the chapter, especially with regard to the throne conflict, and my favorite--it ties into Aztechnology's interest into Spain and the events related to its "relationship" with the RCC. It's also interesting to read about the Church's influence slipping in various parts of the country, which adds to the overall vicious situation of Church politics. The information on the various Sects is also useful, and especially descriptive with relation to the description of the Redentores.

Corporations
All the usual suspects are here. Nice to see Aztechnology. Like the plothooks provided, especially the one shadowcomment after S-K Iberia. Meridional's international influence is good to know even for running in the UCAS. Plot hooks involving dragons can be interesting, although sometimes crackpots are just crackpots. Sol Media's background is also especially fascinating. The implications of ownership, influence, and control are too good to pass up. It'd be nice to know which banks merged into Banco Espanol--although while it'd be interesting, I don't imagine BBVA would be amongst them, as it'd make future activities... awkward a bit. Regardless, it's a good corp to mention.

Shadow Biz
The organized crime in Spain is pretty interesting given the cultural differences of the two major players. BTW, is there any Triad presence in Madrid? The Canary Islands information was also useful to cyberpirates everywhere, although it's probably a stab in the eye to Synner that the Canaries are in SoE, but not the Azores.

A Tour of Spain

Madrid
Ah. Madrid. How... expected. It's bad, which is good for me. OTOH, it seems rather one-sided in describing a metroplex of 8 million, which I have no doubt is due to the fictional Seph's biases. I'm also to assume that King Juan Carlos II lived in the Palacio Real from the text, and La Moncloa is no longer important.

Barcelona
Nice tie-in to the Wraith entry in PAoE. Again... Not surprised by the basic description of the city. It makes sense. Barcelona's nice parts are pretty damn nice.

Gijon
Well, since Berlin's no longer total anarchy... No, seriously, though, it's a great description of the effects of the last 50 years and the situation as it stands. The whole northwest forest just gets weirder and weirder. And Meiga's last comment in this section is... interesting. Especially when linked to the comment in S-K Iberia. (I had to google Cuelebres, but still...)

The Canary Islands
A pirate and meta haven... tough life. The conflict with the general provides plenty of opportunities and ideas. Las Palmas reminds me of a slightly more civilized version of Fort Dauphin in Madagascar, expect for the presence of a megacorp and its launch facility.

Galicia
Galicia sucks. Pthbbbt.

Other than the fact that it is almost a literal island of tolerance in Spain, what can I say? Terrorist and policlub activity, a sunken city holding the remains of one of the holiest site in Europe (with a background count to match, no doubt), and all sorts of fun in Vigo and A Coruna. A covered city... Sweet. Not surprised to see the weather playing a role in the very essence of the community.

Andalusia
There were some interesting suggestions about Granada in the rest of the chapter about the Muslim presence and the general state of the surrounding region, and it's a nice followup to describe the city in more detail. It's nice to see the Alhambra being used for something other than a tourist trap. OTOH it's strange to read about a conflict between Sevilla and Barcelona re: the maglev if Sevilla's deserted and/or a paranoid shell of its former self dominated by one corp but otherwise just... overlooked.

Euskal Herria
More in thoughts, but I will say right here that my perspective has come through my relationships with Basques who were all living outside of Euskadi, and in the vast majority of cases felt that they were driven away, which is why the first thing I did was skip to the EH subchapter, and read Seph's opening paragraph with some apprehension. That said, on the writing and atmosphere merits, the EH subchapter is very good, albeit short. Like I said earlier about SoE and the Euromagic chapter in SOTA64, I may disagree with their perspectives (and to be honest, more than anything else, a comment about NA shamanism in SOTA64), but that's actually what makes these better than other place books (I consider the Euromagic chapter part of SoE), because there is a perspective, an agenda, and some semblance of familiarity that I didn't buy when, say, Nigel Findley decribed the NAN (even though he at least had the decency to assume the persona of a Anglo observer). I mean, just because I did research on the Basques, the PNV, visited Euskadi, and have maybe a ten-word vocabulary (if that, after all this time) doesn't make me an expert.

Anyway...

Freedom... It is a pain, sometimes.

The Basque Life
A high meta birthrate and above-average rate of magicians generally is something of a concern. OTOH, it's not like all the magicians are native. It's a strong description of the region and the people--very easy to picture. Cyber not being as big a social faux pas is also... relative... I guess.

Politics and Corps
But at what a cost... The power of the corps in EH is rather impressive, as is the response and movements by the various political parties. Meanwhile, all is not perfect in EH as the Gudariak prove. The response to them seems very... familiar.

Religion
Cool. More machinations involving religion are a good thing, especially given the specific aspects of Basque spirituality and the perspective of the Spanish Church. Nice reference at the end to a longstanding question. I've read comparisons to the Japanese (specifically the languages), so I'm willing to believe anything, and nothing, in answering that question.
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Synner
post Jan 16 2005, 12:56 PM
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Expect more on the Islamic Renaissance Movement in upcoming books... and a few more surprises.
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Snow_Fox
post Jan 16 2005, 04:10 PM
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Theoretically that could get very ugly with less msture gamers having a go at muslim terrorists.
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Synner
post Jan 16 2005, 04:28 PM
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The Islamic Renaissance is almost on the exact opposite pole to the New Islamic Jihad and the militant factions within the IUM (which have been around for a while and technically fit the Islamic terrorist profile better). Exactly what that means and what it entails in practice is what should be in upcoming books. Much like myself with the RCC, the guy who originally concieved the IRM, did so partially to help shift the negative portrayal of Islamic culture that might have developed from canon as it stood. A whole lot of homework went into this and the result is well-grounded, researched and more than plausible. Trust us, if we didn't shaft the Catholics and we didn't botch the Wiccans, we're definitely not going to paint Islam in black and white.

As was posted recently Loose Alliances should have a chapter which features the Islamic Renaissance Movement, Islamic Unity Movement and the New Islamic Jihad.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jan 16 2005, 06:05 PM
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Guests






Oh, cool. You're two for two with SoE and SOTA64 (and your work in SOTA63, although I think you downplayed combat magic's effectiveness). One more and you get a free set of steak knives. Or a beer. :)

I'm not in any way concerned with implications to terrorism that might involve the IRM for the reasons of what the IRM is compared to IUM and NIJ, as Synner pointed out. My interest is in its relationship to the latter two, and the possible implication that it is being set up in the same way as the RCC was against Aztlan/Aztechnology (which is something I havent' forgotten about, btw, and adds its own elements to what I can do to Spain). Reading the information and shadowtalk on the IRM, then reading SOTA64, there is an innuendo of something bad; something that the IRM is in a position to work against.

Anyway, my full thoughts will be up later today.
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