 The power of suggestion?, Control Manipultation spells. |
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 Aug 19 2004, 10:01 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 31-May 04 Member No.: 6,373  |
So I was just tinkering with an NPC Mage, thinking of making a mage interpretation of a jedi.
So whats the deal with Control thoughts and Influence? The only difference is that Control thoughts has a +1(S) for drain instead of S. Okay so in Control thoughts, i'm sustaining the spell so that i can continue to give commands. While Influence im casting once and planting a suggestion in the target of the spell and continuing on with business. Thats the idea im getting from the description. 1. I'm casting Control thoughts which is a complex action, it states you can give commands as a simple action. Do I have to wait untill next action phase to give a command since casting the spell is a complex action? 2. Control Actions, The said mage casts the spell on a PC. He orders the PC to shoot his fellow runners. Does the Caster also have control over the Combat Pool of the controlled runner? 3. Magic Fingers=Darth Vader choke. :dead: |
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Aug 19 2004, 10:28 PM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
1. yes
2. No, control actions doesn't let you at the skills or pools. 3. Called shot with ranged melee and the +2 for delicate work with magic fingers results in a nasty TN and barely hurts the target unless you cast it at or above force 6. Not an efficient way to take down an opponent. |
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Aug 19 2004, 11:50 PM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Is choking someone really "delicate work"?
~J |
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Aug 20 2004, 12:11 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Ok, delicate isn't really the word, but all actions by way of magic fingers are at +2 to the TN.
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Aug 20 2004, 12:25 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-May 04 Member No.: 6,308 |
I think the telekinetic choke would be totally doable. While it would require a high force, and thus would be inefficient, the point of a telekinetic choke isn't really efficiency, as I see it.
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Aug 20 2004, 01:00 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177 |
I have always figured that a 3 Stooges style eye poke was the best way to directly attack someone with magic fingers. I dont know how much damage it is likely to do, but it's got to be awfully distracting.
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Aug 20 2004, 03:35 AM
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#7
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
For the Vader choke, you really want a Use Skill: Unarmed spell.
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Aug 20 2004, 05:00 AM
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#8
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
The way to attack most NPC's with Magic fingers is to pull the pins on their grenades. Flip their safety, drop their clips, flip up goggles, hit quick relase on their ruck/assault harness, pull helmet over their eyes, flip the off switch on the motorcycle, give their scope/lasersight a good wack (or quick release it), snatch foci off their owners (boy does this piss them off), turn off radios, pull out earpieces. Sure you can throw manaball but this works great for oppenents in cover, you are wounded, you are sustaining several spells, heavy visibility modifiers, opponent has shielding. One success at 8-9 is a hell of a lot easier than a resisted willpower check in the same circumstances.
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Aug 20 2004, 06:05 AM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
A target number of 6 is the bare minimum for the magician to perform many of those actions, and that's just for the Spellcasting Test not to mention the Quickness Test (of which you only get a number of dice equal to the number of successes on the previous test, and a TN of 6 for most of those tests) that can often be required. A simple grade 3 initiate with Shielding (TN is now 9) and 6 dice set aside (with their TN equal to your force and each one of theirs countering one of yours) for it will ruin any chances of that spell succeeding unless you're phenomenally lucky.
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Aug 20 2004, 06:27 AM
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#10
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
And let's not forget vision mods like lighting.
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Aug 20 2004, 06:38 AM
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#11
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Where do you get the base target number of 6? No skills are involved so no +2 and these are all simple actions mostly involving pulling/pushing/twisting. As far as lighting you can use any form of vision enhancement because the spell is already cast. Shielding plays no part in the equation because it only aplies to spell resistance tests. Nothing you are doing would allow such a test. Is it great, no, but again, it can be effective in some circumstances.
Edit: For target six. Aside from casting the spell that is. |
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Aug 20 2004, 06:51 AM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The base target number of six is the base target number for the spell. A Quickness Test can be requested of just about any action, with the description of something as simple as picking up a coin as being one such example. Each of those Quickness Tests should have a TN of 6 (base TN of 4 +2 for the spell's fine control penalty, not to mention another +2 or +1 penalty for sustaining the spell in the first place), or a bare minimum of 4 (plus sustaining penalty) if it's pathetically simple like pushing a button. Shielding applies fully to the situation as you are using a spell against the defended targets; Shielding increases the target number by the initiate's grade and gives the initiate the opportunity to roll his dice with a TN equal to the force of your unwelcome spell, just as it does for all spells cast on or against the protected target.
Your GM has simply been far too lenient with you if he lets you get away with any of those actions you described that easily. Especially if he's not allowing spell defense against any non-damaging spell targeted against the protected individuals. Magic Fingers is no exception. While it is a good spell, it's not that good. |
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Aug 20 2004, 02:14 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 14-March 04 From: Cal Poly: SLO Member No.: 6,155 |
It's a sustained spell though. You don't re-cast it for every action. Once you have it up, you could have quickness tests involved, but sence your opponent can't see the hands and doesn't expect it, I wouldn't expect this very often. And as stated, almost none of these are skill tests, so they just happen.
There is no resistance because it is not cast at anybody either. Telekenetic manips rarely do if I recall. Shielding has absolutely nothing to do with magic fingers because it's the same as shielding against a brick flying at you. In this case, it's a slow brick you can't see. |
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Aug 20 2004, 02:38 PM
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#14
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You may recast this spell again and again until you get enough successes to satisfy you, but you may not get over the Force of the spell in Quickness and Strength. So if on the average you get 2-3 successes on the casting, then you have only 2-3 Quickness and Strength. With only 2-3 Quickness, you will have trouble doing things like pulling a grenade pin or flipping a safety. |
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Aug 20 2004, 03:04 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No it's not. It's the same as having a magical brick thrown at you because the brick itself is magical. Fling is about the only one that does indirect damage. But if you want to use Magic Fingers to pick up a pebble and hurl it at that button you want to push, I might allow you to get away with it. Unfortuantely, that becomes a normal Ranged Combat Test with what is likely a defaulted skill (+4 TN penalty), the fine control penalty (+2), the sustaining penalty (+2), range based off the piddly Strength of the spell, and all other ranged combat modifiers as applicable. That's a base TN of 12 before the other mods, using only the 2-3 dice your effective Strength is giving you. And now the target gets to dodge to boot. Good luck. Using Magic Fingers against something or someone who isn't protected by spell defense (or Shielding, or Reflecting, or Absorption, etc.), that's another story. But Magic Fingers is not immune to spell defense in any way. And just for the record, picking up a coin isn't a normal skill test either, but it's one of the examples for the Quickness Test the spell can require. I always wondered why people thought this spell was so groovy. Now I realize it's because of lax GMs. |
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Aug 20 2004, 05:59 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
Bollocks. There's no rules anywhere to suggest that someone with a 2-3 Strength or Quickness would have trouble pulling a grenade's pin or switching on a safety. A 2 Strength, for example, means that you can carry/life 10 kilos without any trouble or encumbrance at all. Additionally, I'd love to see where it says you have to make a Quickness test to pull the pin on a grenade, either with or without Magic Fingers. Oh, that's right. It doesn't. Dr. Funk, that's the most preposterous reasoning I've ever seen. The brick isn't magical by any means. It was propelled by magic, but once it's up to speed the velocity and mass aren't magical. You could use the same argument against Fling; therefore, your arguments are of dubious validity. And it's far more than a pebble -- even one success on the roll means you can pick up and handle a 5-kilo object with no trouble. Moreover, to take one of your examples, picking up a coin is arguably a simple task. From the chart on page 92 of SR3, that would make the base TN 2, +2 for using Magic Fingers, for a total TN of 4. I can only conclude that you as a GM seem far too interested in screwing over your players with high TNs. Fortunately, most GMs fall somewhere between you and the ultra-lax types that you decry. |
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Aug 20 2004, 06:32 PM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
It's a precedent for simple tasks needing a test. Whether pulling a pin on a moving target is an easier task than picking up a stationary coin on a table is a matter of personal preference, but once you count visibility modifiers, you may actually miss. |
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Aug 20 2004, 07:11 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Which is probably why I said Magic Fingers was closer to having a magical brick being thrown at you than an actual brick (ala the Fling spell) as magic is directly manipulating something in your possesion (and thus protected by spell defense). I then went on to explain that using Magic Fingers to throw something would be closer to Fling, and thus become a Ranged Combat Test, at which point it becomes even less likely that you'll succeed.
And another +2 for sustaining the spell, for a total TN of 6. Amazing. Add visual mods and other modifiers on top of that, and it quickly grows. And you only have a couple of dice to use to get it assuming you're lucky to get a single success on the Spellcasting Test (against spell defense/shielded opponents) to begin with.
Or more correctly, I actually GM the game as opposed to letting players get away with murder with a simple utilitarian spell. If you're using it to decimate your enemies with ease, your GM is being a shitty GM since the rules for the spell quite clearly make it less than efficient for doing many of the things mentioned earlier in the thread. |
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Aug 20 2004, 07:19 PM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 8-April 03 Member No.: 4,405 |
I recently took the influence spell for my latest character and I was kind of wondering the extent that people will go along with an idea. Say if you implanted, "Go get a soybar from the vending machine" in a guard's head, would he go or say he's not hungry? Assuming you succeed when will he turn around and realize he should be guarding his post?
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Aug 20 2004, 07:21 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No, he'd go for the snack unless someone stopped him on the way and asked something along the lines of "shouldn't you be at your post?" At that point he'd get another Willpower Test to resist the spell.
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Aug 20 2004, 07:26 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
That's where the Willpower test stated in the spells description would come in, I think. Abandoning your post to go get a soybar isn't exactly the right thing to do, and the guard knows it. He'd more likely just pick one up from the machine on his next round, or if he's at a stationary post, maybe radio a buddy who is doing rounds to drop one off on his next pass or something. |
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Aug 20 2004, 07:56 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The spell's description mentions that the target has to be told that the action he's performing is wrong. The initial Spell Resistance Test covers the implantation of the original suggestion, and they believe it's their own (thus will concoct some reason to be doing it to rationalize it).
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Aug 20 2004, 08:21 PM
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#23
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
That's my take on it as well. If the spell succeeds, the idea to perform the influenced action takes hold. Until that action is performed or someone points out what's going on, no willpower test happens. I often end up providing the target with a willpower test if the suggestion is wildly inappropriate to their morals, too. For example, if wageslave corp lover was influenced to attack a friend and employee, they'd get a test. But if they're influenced to go to the lounge for a soybar then nope, unless someone would ask why they're taking an unscheduled break. Edit: I also interpret "told" to include body language and what not. So if someone is influenced to shoot their friend, the look of surprise and fear in their friends eyes and body language would be enough to help the target get a willpower check. Course, if the target surprises their unfortunate friend and shoots him/her in the back then ....... |
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Aug 20 2004, 08:26 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
You can have some real fun by influencing a victim in more long lasting ways. Just think of all the things attributed to post-hypnotic suggestion.
With a really good roll, the victim can be made not to believe something is there. This one gets hard if other people are around to say "Why is there a tank on your lawn?" or when the victim walks into the tank when mowing his lawn, but it does have potential. |
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Aug 20 2004, 08:39 PM
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#25
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I had a character that once influenced a hellhound on guard duty to believe that he (the character) was the dog's master. Worked wonders. I let it go on for a little while, too, because I thought it was such a great idea. Then, the hellhound bumped into other hellhounds and they "asked" it why it was following the orders of the character and the hell hound resisted the suggestion. Made for an interesting night of gaming :)
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