New Focus Type, "Adept Power" Focus (need new name...) Options

[TheScamp]

[derail]

[Wireknight]

[tjn]

[mfb]

okay. the nitty-gritty of this argument is that you're giving out free adept powers to anybody with money, which basically makes the adept archtype useless except for creating foci. no amount of money or karma should allow someone who isn't an adept to pick up the full abilities of an adept. if i put a Conjuring focus on here, that allows any magically-active character to summon spirits as if he were a follower of the same path as the creator of the focus, i'd get laughed off the boards. this focus is simply unfair to adepts--if it existed in the game, there wouldn't be any good reason to play an adept beyond the RP aspect. why waste your magical abilities on adept powers, when you can just throw down some cash and bring home a bagfull of them?

[Wireknight]

[Cochise]

Apart from the discussion about cost and who should be able to use the proposed focus type (I'm strongly for restricting it to adepts only), I have my problems somewhere else:

The idea obviously is not only to potentially increase already known powers, but also to provide new powers. And that doesn't quite go along with the rest of the foci: All foci (even the anchoring focus) only increase or replicate an ability the magician who has bonded it already possesses. Now such an adept focus would provide something totally new ... not too consistant, which leads right to the follow up problem (which could be solved, but would impose further requirements):

How is an adept supposed to determine / link a power to that focus that he himself does not possess during the time of enchantment and / or bonding?
There should be someone involved in the creation of such a focus who actually knows the power(s) in question.

[snowRaven]

Cochise hit the button here.

The Adept Focus (as described) does things that no other (non-unique) focus in the game does. It grants new abilities. The closest you can get to this is an Anchoring focus, which has severe limitations, or possibly a magical tattoo, which also suffers limitations.

Otherwise, the only way to find something similar in canon-material (excluding SoE, MJLBB and SOTA:64, since I haven't got any of them) is to turn to the unique foci possessed by such characters as Teachdaire and Dominic O'Brien (If I recall the name correctly) - see Prime Runners and Celtic Double Cross respectively, or visit Ancient History's site.

Wireknight's Ability Focus seems much more sensible to me, and works along the same lines. I think it is abit limiting in that it only boosts a pre-set power, but I think the Somatic focus is partly broken. I dislike the mechanic that uses half the force of the focus. This is unlike any existing rule. Instead I suggest increasing BOTH Magic and Power Points by the focus' force, and increase the bonding cost instead.

[GunnerJ]

mfb- by definition, anything you need to give money for is not free, so there is no sensible way to claim that Ability Foci give "free" adept powers. And there's also karma. As to the "why would anyone play an adept," have you read anything I or tjn have written? This exact argument has been dealt with and trounced.

Others: I fail to see how uniqueness is a mark against this idea. I'm looking at you treating the point that these foci do something unique like it's the smoking gun and I'm scratching my head. So what?

[GunnerJ]

It's happened too many times on this board where I try to look for feedback and end up fighting some vague battle. This isn't a scolding to everyone here, because a lot of it is my fault as much as anyone elses. What I want to do with these "idea threads" I post is bring a desire or intention in line with a mechanical reality. I don't want to be arguing for the sake of arguing. I have already gotten some good points here (make sure the karmic and monetary costs prohibit this from replacing adepts, find some way to bond the adept sealing the powers in the focus and the focus itself, no matter who uses it). Maybe it would be helpful if I outlined my intention.

What I want are magic goodies, esentially. I want, to use a crude analogy, something which works sort of like the relics from FF6, or the One Ring, or the many permutations on the magic sword that grant special abilities because of their enchantment to the person weilding it. The trouble is, the only thing SR has for this is Anchoring, which while neat for making things like sniper-protection or magic grenades, blows hard for my purposes. Imagine trying to make a medalion that protects against hostile spells with Anchoring. You could put a Spell Shield spell in it, as long as you were cool with using it once before having to ask the mage you got it from to re-cast the spell into it, but at that point you may as well just hire the guy to cast it on you and sustain whenever you need it.

But if you had a medalion with the something like Magic Resistance power...

This was the intention, things which are essentially, as tjn put it, gimmicks. They're useful for a few specific things, but they were never intended to "replace" adepts, nor can they really without gimping your attention to other magic skills (you'd be, again as tjn put it, a crappy Magician's Way adept who can project.) You can't go out and search for specific powers (at least not easily), but you may go into a talismonger's place and find some sort of Jump Boots that allow you to leap higher (has Great Leap in it) or a Cloak of Shadows that lets you sneak up on people easier (has Improved Stealth). This was the vision, to give SR this type of magical trinket or artifact where previously there was a hole half-filled by bulldrek like Anchoring.

The thing is, we can't make foci for adept-type abilities that work just like other foci. Consider, for example, the "half force thing." This makes perfect sense for adepts because you actually can have half power points. Or consider the fact that this grants new abilties instead of just improving existing ones. Other foci use units that directly correspond to the units of the abilities they enhance: Force. But adept powers don't have "Force." Some are improvable, but a "Force 3" Improved Stealth isn't the "same" as "Force 3" Improved Pistols. And you can't have any "Force" of an ability like Quickdraw, you either have it or you don't.

I'm not trying to replace adepts, nor do I think this focus type can do that. I'm just trying to find a path to the stuff I want that can be shielded from abuse.

[Wireknight]

Magical Gear

The above link will show you how I attempted to overcome the whole "magic sword" thing. Basically, imps inhabiting a focus, free ally spirits inhabiting a homonculus that is also some sort of wearable or carryable object, and the like are the only real way I can see to achieve what you're talking about within the rules. The spells they could cast, and paranormal/spirit powers they could employ, can be used to add effects that are beyond the scope of normal foci.

The problem, of course, is that they are more than just foci. They are sentient magical beings. Of course, with masking, there's no reason the character who possesses them need ever know that.

[BitBasher]

[Dashifen]

Essentially nothing. Just like you could say that your character initiatated and used a talisman geas of boots to use with great leap. However, if you're goal is to introduce artifacts of magic into Shadowrun, then I think GunnerJ's on the right track. I for one like the idea. I agree with others -- it should be a tool for adepts only -- or perhaps the Aleph Society :vegm:.

[mfb]

the adept powers are "free" because you didn't have to pick them up at chargen. like i said, it'd be like allowing non-conjurors to conjure freely through the use of a focus. i've read the arguments about replacing adepts, and i disagree--with your ability focus, it would be incredibly easy to become a badass mage/adept that trumps the everliving jesus out of magician's path adepts. the feedback i've been giving you isn't vague at all, but i'll try to be clearer: giving non-adepts access to adept powers through the use of a new focus type is a bad idea.

look, if you want a magical gewgaw that grants adept powers, just make it a unique enchantment and leave it at that. if this were a one-shot deal, i'd be fine with it--one single mage who gains Traceless Walk and Improved Ability: Stealth 4 because he dumped 20-something karma into a unique enchantment, that's cool. allowing any mage who wants those powers to buy a focus for it, that's not cool.

[Smiley]

I've seen people trying to give Adepts the same benefits as cyberware (Smartlink power, etc.), but never the other way around. Just pick an archetype and live with that archetype's limitations. Want to fling spells and summon fire elementals? MAGE. Want to have a Smartlink-II and 5d6 initiative? STREET SAM. Want to do both? TOUGH SHIT. You made your choice.

[EDIT] Upon further reflection, you CAN have a mage with SL-II and 5D6, but he'd be geased out the ass or have a crappy magic rating. But you all get my point.

[GunnerJ]

[snowRaven]

MiTS pg. 46. Unique Enchantments.

Granted, it doesn't contain any strict, easy-to-follow rules for making them. That's why they're called unique. Honestly, I'd just go this route for your 'gimmicks' as you say. No two are ever the same, they can range from very low power to very high power.
How to create them is only ever interesting if a PC attempts it, and when one does there are guidelines in MiTS to go by. I'd say 20-60 days deign time for most of them (although the best is just to have them seek out an existing formula - send 'em on an interesting run somewhere). Force of the focus? Well, that varies greatly depending on what you want. GM's call. Second, always require at least one exotic material in a unique focus. Preferraby more than one, especially for powerful foci.
Enchanting Table. 6 is probably a pretty good TN for most mid-level unique formulas. Then again, they're unique. Make it an 8, or maybe a 10, or why not a 5?
Does the focus grant multiple powers/effect? Then it's a stacked focus.
First Bonding? Surprise the character. Pick something sensible, like three more karma than the character curretnly has (Make a point of asking. 'How much for first bonding? Well, how much karma does your character have? (peek at character sheet, to make sure) Ten? Nope, sorry - you need three more. Players love that. :vegm:)

Samples of Unique foci (with stats) in canon, and roughly what they do:

[ Spoiler ]

Silver Songbird - Sings, moves and probably does something else too. SoTF
Shroud of Shadows - Calms people and has all sorts of uses. SoTF
Teachdaire's Ring - Makes one subject forget about wearer for awhile. (PrimeRunners)
Craig Sanchez Token - Masks the wearer as a nondescript mundane. (Blood in the BoardRoom)
DeVries' Essence Focus - Boosts essence. (PrimeRunners)
Golden Cauldron - Grants Enhanced Physical Attributes, Movement and Weather Control. (Celtic Double-Cross)
MacDonald Claymore - Creates an astral barrier. (Imago)
Orichalcum Key - Helps with Unbinding, unlocking and opening things. (SuperTuesday)
The Idol - Massive Power Focus usable without bonding (Neat, huh?) :grinbig: (BottledDemon)

Basically, if you want a focus that does something similar to a critter power or a spell, or one who only gives bonus dice for one specific use, unique foci can do it. If it's similar to a normal focus, design it based on that - modifying for it's special abilities.

[GunnerJ]

Hell, I didn't even know about that. Still, I want to develop this idea further. I'll look more into Unique Enchantments, though.

BTW, something popped into my head while I was thinking about whether or not ability foci can "replace" adepts: how easy is it to take away an adept power? Like, to prevent an adept from using one of the powers he/she knows? Is it easier or harder than destroying ot stealing a focus?

[BitBasher]

That really, REALLY depends on the adept and the power. That's very VERY variable.

[GunnerJ]