IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Explosive forms
Edward
post Aug 29 2004, 12:02 AM
Post #1


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,073
Joined: 23-August 04
Member No.: 6,587



Explosive forms.

If I want explosives to do controlled blasts what do I use.

I am talking opening high security doors I am assuming C4 would be an appropriate one but what shape dose it come in. placing a 1KG block of C4 on the door and running up the corridors doesn’t sound like a description of a skilled demolitions expert. Can you get the stuff as 1cm cord you tape to or wrap around an object or perhaps in a tube like a corking gun (great for masquerading as maintenance workers)?

Edward
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bigity
post Aug 29 2004, 12:07 AM
Post #2


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,840
Joined: 24-July 02
From: Lubbock, TX
Member No.: 3,024



Yea, there is demolition cord used in all kinds of applications. I'm not sure what the exact material is, but I'd say you could get a C4 equivelent (in game terms) in just about any shape you need.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zeel De Mort
post Aug 29 2004, 12:09 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 403
Joined: 27-August 02
From: Scotland
Member No.: 3,175



You can create pretty controlled explosions using C4/C12 as they have a tiny blast radius and can be stuck pretty much anywhere and shaped how you like (i.e. make a Demolitions test to increase the power).

Also, SOTA 2063 has rules for Bangalores, and M&M has Spray Foam explosives, both of which might be what you're looking for.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrostyNSO
post Aug 29 2004, 12:11 AM
Post #4


Resident Legionnaire
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,136
Joined: 8-August 04
From: Usually Work
Member No.: 6,550



C-4 can be used to breach doors by using multiple (5 to 6) charges (about .5 kilo) with steel runners stuck to a door and connected to eachother by detcord.

These are quite easily prepared and pre-packed, and once you get good at it, you can probably breach a door in less than 30 seconds.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Aug 29 2004, 12:40 AM
Post #5


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



Ruleswise, C-12 is great for "confined explosions", since that stuff won't harm a fly beyond a few meters with common charge sizes. 9kg of C-12 will not damage anything at 3 or more meters away from the explosion, but will blow a 0.5meter hole into anything, and will utterly destroy Heavy Structural or lighter materials.

Don't try that at home, kids. It is not completely safe to stand 3 meters away from 9kg of any conventional high explosives going off IRL.

Detcord is not (or at least shouldn't be, I haven't got SOTA63) useful as the main charge for breaching anything sturdier than light wooden doors. They generally have a very small amount of high explosive inside, around 20 grams per meter in length or something like that.

Linear Shaped Charges might be sort of what you're looking for, maybe, if you want to get past thicker metal doors without huge amounts of explosives. Except, of course, that they don't exist in SR canon.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrostyNSO
post Aug 29 2004, 12:54 AM
Post #6


Resident Legionnaire
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,136
Joined: 8-August 04
From: Usually Work
Member No.: 6,550



Detcord is virtually useless except for "priming" a desired break location. Think of it as "making" the grain for the axe to hit and split the block
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zeel De Mort
post Aug 29 2004, 01:15 AM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 403
Joined: 27-August 02
From: Scotland
Member No.: 3,175



Oh, on second reading it seems there's detcord in SOTA 2063 as well. That does 12S along its length if you use it as an explosive. Blast is -1/m, which is odd when you compare that to C4 or C12, especially considering the detcord is filled with plastic explosive itself.

The Bangalore torpedos in the same book do 20D, which is quite a lot considering they were used for destroying booby traps and barbed wire fences. However I guess they've come a long way in 150 years or so! Anyway SOTA 2063 recommends drilling a hole through your barrier and shoving some of that through it. Interesting..
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post Aug 29 2004, 02:58 AM
Post #8


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



You can also use detcord to cut down trees. Check your field manual on how many times you've got the wrap it, based on the tree diameter and they type of wood. It's one of the ways to make an LZ in the woods.

You can breech most interior walls and almost any residential door with detcord too. For the heavy metal firedoors, you can blow if off it's hinges but not actually breach the door.

The best things about it though is that it's propagation speed is very fast (6000 m/s?) so you can set up multiple charges that need to be simultaneous, and link them with detcord. Saving you the complications and risk of using multiple detonators.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrostyNSO
post Aug 29 2004, 03:03 AM
Post #9


Resident Legionnaire
*****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,136
Joined: 8-August 04
From: Usually Work
Member No.: 6,550



That's how door charges are made =)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dice
post Aug 29 2004, 03:06 AM
Post #10


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 45
Joined: 25-October 02
Member No.: 3,498



QUOTE (Zeel De Mort)
The Bangalore torpedos in the same book do 20D, which is quite a lot considering they were used for destroying booby traps and barbed wire fences.

It takes a lot of explosives to make an appreciable gap in proper military barbed wire obstacles...a grenade or two will just make them untidy and dusty...

A typical Bangalore Torpedo section is 5' long and holds 9lbs of explosives. It's basically a long thin satchel charge
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post Aug 29 2004, 06:08 AM
Post #11


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



Also, a real obstacle will be pretty deep, maybe 10-20 feet. And cutting the actual wire especially when there is alot of it, will take plenty of work. And when the wire is mined, are there are guys with guns guarding it, it's gets even worse. Better to get some planes to drop bombs on the places you want the paths, and then to the much simpler job of 'tidying up'. Combat obstacle breaching is mostly for officers to order when they want to be able to comfort your grieving widow.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Aug 29 2004, 11:19 AM
Post #12


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
You can also use detcord to cut down trees. Check your field manual on how many times you've got the wrap it, based on the tree diameter and they type of wood. It's one of the ways to make an LZ in the woods.

My experiences on that were not very positive... Maybe the detcord we used had less explosives than what the US uses. The problem is that you're "crushing" the tree, which takes a whole lot of oompf. If you want to cut down a bunch of thick, living trees, you better have shitloads of detcord. Not that it isn't fun, especially with smaller trees...

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
The best things about it though is that it's propagation speed is very fast (6000 m/s?) so you can set up multiple charges that need to be simultaneous, and link them with detcord. Saving you the complications and risk of using multiple detonators.

Should be noted that this is indeed the whole point of detcord. Everything else is just "you can also use it as..."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rory Blackhand
post Aug 29 2004, 05:52 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 177
Joined: 23-February 03
Member No.: 4,141



Since C4 is a very stable explosive it will not detonate with heat alone or with force alone. In other words you can burn it or fire a bullet into it without setting it off, though I wouldn't fire a bullet into a burning block of C4 and I wouldn't fire a tracer round into a block of C4 either. And neither method is reliable, neither will produce an explosion every time, but they might. That is what a blasting cap is for. It is designed to produce both elements needed to detonate C4.

A non electric blasting cap is somewhat unstable. It only requires force to set it off. This is the purpose of det-cord. Det-cord comes in a roll and can be cut to any length. It is also unstable, only requiring heat to ignite. The blasting cap is crimped onto the end of the det-cord. The basting cap is then shoved into the block of C4. When a flame touches the det-cord it is ignited just like a stick of dynamite, the small explosion sets off the blasting cap, which in turn sets off the C4.

The source of heat to set off the det cord is usually accomplished with a timed fuse wire. It also comes in a roll and can be cut to any length. It is also marked with exact measurements. The fuse cord burns at a very consistant rate. It is a simple calculation to figure out how much of a delay you want. The more time you need, to walk away for example, the longer the piece of cord you use. There is also a fuse igniter that starts the cord burning.

I wanted to make two comments. First, the non electric blasting caps are somewhat unstable. They come in a box of ten and are packed in foam. They are not much bigger than a pencil and about half the length, but they deliver a nasty little explosion. They are a mini shaped charge and will spray shrapnel in a shotgun pattern. If some rough handling or enough force banged them around to set one off, it could hit and detonate any C4 you are carrying. On a Recon team we don't have one man carry both the C4 and the blasting caps. Maybe rules get broken in combat, but certainly not as a common practice. It is reasonable to ask players how they are transporting their explosives and it will take some time to set a charge if the equiptment was carried safely.

Second, the C4 itself is pliable, it can be shaped. Btw, to blow open a safe door that it took 4 men to lift took a snow cone cup sized and shaped charge. The C4 block itself comes wrapped in plastic. So if you were to detonate the C4 on open ground sure there would be a low blast radius and no shrapnel. However as soon as you place it in contact with steel you have created a source of shrapnel.

It happened to me once in demolition class when I was in the Marine Corps that it was getting late one night and so our instructor told us to use all the C4 we had left, but we were going to stand over by the bleechers instead of behind the blast wall so we could witness this giant explosion of all the remaining C4. We had been blowing up train tracks, metal beams, and sheet steel of various thicknesses all day, but he clearly said not to place any C4 near metal for this last explosion. Unfortunately even in the most elite units from across the world it is easy to get orders misinterpreted. So the 30 of us stood there in the twilight waiting for our charges to go off. When they did, it was apparant that someone had placed charges on metal because screaming pieces of shrapnel started flying all around us as one charge after another went off. It was like being on the receiving end of an artillery strike. There was a towering tree line of these old growth pine trees behind us, maybe another 20 or 30 yards further away from the blast, and the sound the shrapnel made in the darkness as it shredded thru the branches was a bit unnerving. None of us received a scratch though. But my point is, that when you apply shrapnel to an explosive you get fragmentation effects. True you can shape the charge, but a sliver of a steel is not going to fly just 9 meters and come to a stop. Just something to think about when you are in a hall or room and want to blow your way out of it with explosives.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hobgoblin
post Aug 29 2004, 06:05 PM
Post #14


panda!
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,331
Joined: 8-March 02
From: north of central europe
Member No.: 2,242



thermite would be another nice way to crack a door like that. its not an explosive so it more controlable.

as for the lethality of explosives, from what i understand the amount of pure force needed to kill a person is a lot. what kills are most often flying mass (nails, bits of rock or wood and similar). this is why they use heavy mats on top of blast jobs, these mats stop the spray of stone and other material. this is allso why a grenade is so mutch better at killing then trowing a lump of c-12 over to the enemy as the grenades often have a prestressed outer coating that is designed to fragment. and in fact you can survive a grenade blast in close range if the ground is hard. lay down flat and hope to god that the detonation becomes reflected upwards as thats the direction all the small items will go as well :)

i recall a news story ones where someone took a sports bag, put a charge of explosives in it (dont know how mutch) and then wrapped the charge in screws, nails and other similar items. then he took it to a concert and detonated it on the crowd :( instant insane fragmentation bomb.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Aug 29 2004, 06:24 PM
Post #15


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (Rory Blackhand)
A non electric blasting cap is somewhat unstable. It only requires force to set it off. This is the purpose of det-cord. Det-cord comes in a roll and can be cut to any length. It is also unstable, only requiring heat to ignite.

I guess that depends on the detcord in question. The type I played around with required a blasting cap to be set off, and to ensure it does go off, the detcord was taped around the blasting cap so that cap points along the length of the cord.

A quick Googling leads me to believe that more stable detcords with a plastic explosive (eg PETN) core and that require a blasting cap is what is commonly known as detonation cord, since all dictionary entries and descriptions look like this:
"While it has the appearance of nylon cord, the core is actually a plastic explosive, and it is initiated by the use of a blasting cap."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Aug 29 2004, 06:29 PM
Post #16


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (hobgoblin)
as for the lethality of explosives, from what i understand the amount of pure force needed to kill a person is a lot. [...]

Yeah, it's certainly easier to kill people with fragmentation than it is with just the pressure wave and heat. However, you immediately know something is horribly, horribly wrong when a straight explosive HE grenade (that weighs 0.25kg) has a wounding radius greater than 6kg of C-12.

Been discussed here a trillion times before. There's just no way around it: if you want the rules for explosives to make sense, you're going to have to use a flat Blast rating for all the Commercial explosives, preferably -2/meter (since that's what the non-fragmenting grenades use).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Edward
post Aug 29 2004, 08:08 PM
Post #17


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,073
Joined: 23-August 04
Member No.: 6,587



The problem with Thermit is that it is availability 10. Witch is very confusing considering it is made by mixing 2 completely uncontrolled substances (powdered aluminium and powdered rust) possibly with some form of binder so you can use it as a paste. The ignition sores for it is a little harder. Magnesium ribbon is probably the easiest to obtain reliable way to light it but party sparklers have a chance.

Edward
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BGMFH
post Aug 30 2004, 01:15 AM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 403
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Kill Em All
Member No.: 2,018



Thermite requires large quantities IIRC, and someone will notice the troll buying all the rust in Seattle
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Siege
post Aug 30 2004, 01:19 AM
Post #19


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,065
Joined: 16-January 03
From: Fayetteville, NC
Member No.: 3,916



Hob - that's an old trick.

Explosive + metal bits = improvised anti-personnel device.

You can use nuts, screws, bolts and the ever-popular nails.

You could even use handfuls of coins for a change.

-Siege
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Aug 30 2004, 01:26 AM
Post #20


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Loose gravel, now that would rock.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Siege
post Aug 30 2004, 02:02 AM
Post #21


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,065
Joined: 16-January 03
From: Fayetteville, NC
Member No.: 3,916



Ya know, that's not the way weed like to be stoned.

-Siege
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mfb
post Aug 30 2004, 03:07 AM
Post #22


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 11,410
Joined: 1-October 03
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 5,670



your puns are without humor value. apparently, you all take the ability to tell jokes for granite.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JaronK
post Aug 30 2004, 04:25 AM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 942
Joined: 13-May 04
Member No.: 6,323



Maybe what we need is a more concrete example of how this should work?

JaronK
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Siege
post Aug 30 2004, 04:47 AM
Post #24


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,065
Joined: 16-January 03
From: Fayetteville, NC
Member No.: 3,916



Nah. Cement what he said.

-Siege
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
UpSyndrome
post Aug 30 2004, 05:00 AM
Post #25


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: 22-July 04
From: East Lansing, MI
Member No.: 6,506



Maybe you're just rocks...stones...aw shit I got nothin.

-Joe
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th May 2024 - 08:24 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.