Distance Strike Options

[Fastball]

Another topic raised the point that one can use distance strike to negate an opponent's chance to counter attack while engaged in melee combat, and I was wondering what people's opinions on this are.

I understand there is nothing that says, distance strike can't be used, but there are a few intuitive problems with this. If the opponent is close enough to counter attack a normal unarmed attack, why couldn't they counter a special unarmed attack? I can't imagine an opponent standing there and looking dumb just because you decided to use a power instead of swinging your fist.

Thus, it would seem to me that one of the two situations should occur:

1. Distance strike could be used to negate an opponent's reach bonus but will not negate a counterattack if the opponent is close enough to make their own unarmed attack without moving. OR

2. Distance strike should be subjected to the +2TN modifier for ranged attacks made while engaged in melee combat, even if your target is the person with whom you are in a melee.

In the first scenario, I wouldn't consider it unreasonable that the adept be allowed to use the power to negate an opponent's reach during the opponent's initiative, as a trade-off for losing the no counter benefit.

Opinions, facts, and (deserved) insults please.

[RedmondLarry]

Seems reasonable.

[The White Dwarf]

The second option is what I would consider canon based on the descriptions of the power, however the first option is both logical and reasonable. Either should work well.

[toturi]

I agree with WD and I'll go with 2 on this.

[Shockwave_IIc]

Although as WD has said second seems more Canon, Im liking the first one more.

[Botch]

Yeah, like Shockwave_IIc says I agree 2 seems more canon, but I prefer 1

[Kagetenshi]

I much prefer the second, myself. And I'm pretty sure it's got the benefit of canon, too.

~J

[Sargasso]

Well, a pistol has no minimum range, nor does distance strike. They're both ranged attacks. Isn't there a rule in the core book about trying to use a ranged weapon in melee or some such? Presumably it's difficult to use ranged weapons in melee, but sometimes plausible. Jabbing somone in the gut with a pistol before pulling the trigger makes for a messy corpse. Distance striking in melee wshould count as using a ranged weapon in melee...asumming there's already rules for that.

[Kagetenshi]

There are. That's the +2 mod offered in Option 2 above.

~J

[Apathy]

Of course, you could step out of melee range and then use the power, but you'd be trading the +2 modifier for 'ranged-attacker in melee' with the +2 modifier for 'ranged-attacker walking'.

[Sargasso]

Ah, I'd misunderstood what you meant, my fault. I agree that option 2is the most reasonable. As for stepping of melee to "shoot" your assilant with distance strike, aren't there rules for disengageing from melee? In essence you're jumping back and shooting.

[Smiley]

I agree with the first one. You could be a dwarf fighting a cyclops in melee and all you'd have to do is keep a bit of distance.

And the way we've always handled disengaging from melee, you can jump out any time you want to, but your opponent get a free hit on you.

[BitBasher]

This is completely dissimilar to firing a gun, totally. These ARE hand to hand blows, they can be done while defending it's just that a swing comes up short? you hit them anyway. Out of arms reach? you hit them anyway... so forth and so on.

Godly.

[Sargasso]

When you step out of melee range, you're far enough that melee isn't happening, thus they don't hit you. A distance strike is an "unarmed" ranged attack. Imagine a Haduken.

[Smiley]

I been thinking about it and I think option 1 is still reasonable, but now I also think that option 2 is as well. Say you're fighting a troll with a katana. He has a reach of 2 on you to represent that you have to get in a lot closer to hit him while all he has to do is swing, so it's much harder for you. If you have distance strike, you can stay as farther away and still pummel him. But you also have to concentrate on not letting him get in closer again, so that should be good for a +1 or +2 to your TN.

[EDIT]Also, this way your opponent gets a counterattack whereas they would just have to soak it if you weren't in melee.

This is an interesting topic. Kinda like one of those Zen 'What's the sound of one hand clapping' kinda things.

[Sargasso]

I think the significant difference with Distance Strike, when compared to a regular unarmed strike is that distance stick is exactly like firing a gun. It's simply a ranged attack. It's a Haduken, a ball of Chi, a spear of Hate, whatever. It's a magical force. You can't put a ball of Chi in a wrist lock, or kick it in the shin when it tried to hit you.

[RedmondLarry]

[BitBasher]

[The White Dwarf]

As Im sure most of us could lookup, it says the adept makes an unarmed attack as normal (ignoring reach), and that the target resists as a ranged attack (ie dodge, no counter attack).

It is effectivly a ranged attack made with the Unarmed skill and damage code. It says you ignore reach and that the target may not counter attack. If this were to occur in melee none of the powers conditions would be changed. However, it is logical to apply the +2 for ranged in melee modifer, because thats what is occuring. The original post didnt ask "what must occur" but rather "what would logically occur" and people responded. Keep in mind that the only hand to hand modifer stated as being ignored is reach, so in a big melee the other ones will still apply.

If you see distance strike as "extending" your punches' force a few feet, thats different from seeing it as a "hadouken" type of thing. Which of course changes where you see it as sitting in the spectrum.

Bottom line, its another grey-area because some facets of the powers are not clearly defined. One strength of the d20 system is that everything is clearly defined, how it works, what checks are made, and what stacks. Shadowrun could seriously benefit from some clearer definitions across all areas of the game.

[Necro Tech]

Just as a side note, a couple people mentioned stepping out of combat. There are no rules covering this that I could find. It seems a tad cheesy to walk away from the adept 3 or 4 meters to avoid combat then smoke him with your shotgun. Sad but true.

[Kagetenshi]

Ah, but you forget: movement happens throughout the whole turn. If you're walking and he's walking, and he's faster than you, you're not going to get away from him.

~J

[Necro Tech]

In a standup fight, no one is walking, just orbiting each other. Plus, if the other guy has not declared movement you still walk away. Had it happen and was pissed but the free hack rule only applies if your opponent tries to walk by you.

[Kagetenshi]

If you're moving from the place where you're fighting, you're walking. I certainly know that if unrestricted a sparring match can move pretty far from where it started, and I see no reason why a fight wouldn't be able to (it should be more likely to, as there are more environmental variables that one can try to turn in one's favour).

~J

[Kanada Ten]

Every other character gets a free action on every character's pass, and it's only a free to declare movement.

[Necro Tech]

Sure, using logic a fight can move around quite a bit. The rules are a different story as we all know. Also, declaring movement is free but you won't move until your turn (or pass equvilant) comes around. Silly, frustating, but by the book.