 PDF versions?, Will there ever be any? |
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 Sep 12 2004, 09:53 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522  |
Just to keep this in perspective -- have you looked at eBay? The vast majority of the OOP stuff goes for under $10, shipped. That's my primary reason in thinking that $15 is steep. |
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Sep 12 2004, 09:55 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The deal with the prices is twofold--the cost of making a good scan of the book and hosting it online; and the fact that said .pdfs will almost automatically be lifted and disperesed through p2p networks.
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Sep 13 2004, 01:31 AM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,640 |
Denver boxed set just went for 52 dollars on ebay. not exactly cheap..
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Sep 13 2004, 02:30 AM
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#29
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
The difference is though (Between say Denver boxed set, or even a Universal Brotherhood set and a PDF ) supply.
Universal Brotherhood printed only somany copies. Once they are all purchased, guess what? seller's market. That means if you are willing to pay 52 bucks for Denver then you'll get it. (Makes me glad I bought all the books as they came out.) Initially PDF's would seem expensive-after all you want to make a profit. But once they are copied they could in theory make up for that cost a hundred fold. Its the last part of Ancients post that matters most I suspect. People will steal these books/PDF's and make them available for you to download with out paying. And that robs Fan Pro, which of course they don't want. ( I don't blame them-its money they could be doing something with-like paying their employees, and producing new books.) I hope eventually they settle on something they like, and go for it. I'd love to have all my books burned onto a disc, and then I'd simply use my lap top. No more lugging a trunk full of books every where I go. (Getting car jacked by a Fan Boy is my worst nightmare.) |
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Sep 13 2004, 03:23 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 29-July 03 Member No.: 5,137 |
The descriptions I see of Fair Use on this board tend towards the excessively restrictive definitions that the RIAA and MPAA are trying to force down the throats of the consumer, and very much not in spirit with the concept or even the current letter (although that is in a state of flux right now due to the aforementioned groups attempts to stifle it). Fair use most certainly does and absolutely should include copying an entire book for personal use, just as much as it includes copying an entire movie or CD for personal use. The case which made the concept of downloading a digital copy of a work you own (namely the shutting down of MP3.com) was one of the greatest blows against both consumer rights and independent publishing in modern law.
I in no way support stealing a digital copy of a book, just as I would oppose stealing a physical copy; I would however hope that Fanpro would work to keep the concept of consumer rights in mind rather than sticking to the guns held by publishing giants. If you have a digital copy of a work you own a physical copy of, I don't care how you got the digital copy, it should be legal, not to mention there would be no way to show it's not. Please show a bit of reason an common sense and leave the destruction of our rights as consumers to the giants. My apologies if these seems like I'm trying to flame people or act as flame bait, I'm not. I just find it extremely frustrating when even groups like this talk as though consumer rights were a thing of the past and something to fear. |
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Sep 13 2004, 04:01 AM
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#31
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Also to keep it in perspective... That's also a used, older print copy of the book that may or may not be in good shape. With the .PDF downloads, you have a crisp, clean electronic copy that you can take with you, if you have a laptop, or even print out various pages from as needed for use during games. Theoretically, you could have every game ever publshed and take it with you in a 5 pound laptop. If I haul every game book I own with me to a game session, we're talking 5 feet and about 100 pounds of paper product. Not portable.
Consumer rights only extend so far. personally, I find it frustrating to see the whole "Consumer rights" thing bandied about so much when you're talking about, in effect, stealing. Like I said in my post above, FanPro's not gonna search your hard drive and file charges if you have a PDF book on your computer. I'm pretty sure Rob doesn't give a rats ass if you want a crappy pirated PDF for your laptop, especially off an old out of print book that FanPro's not gonna see a dime for if you buy it on the secondary market. But don't flaunt it. Don;t post it up for download. Don't host it, don;t advertise it. That makes you a potential target because if it's brought to FanPro's attention, they have to defend their copyright. They don;t have a choice. Likewise, don't discuss it here. period. We don;t condone copyright piracy, support it, or publically agree with it. Dumpshock's always stood by first FASA and now WizKids and FanPro's copyrights, and we'll continue to do so. I'm not closing the topic as the discussion of Shadowrun PDF's for sale in the future is still valid, but the topic of the leaglity of pirated material is over. Thank you for playing. Bull |
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Sep 13 2004, 09:53 AM
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#32
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Please note that with regards to FanPro selling Shadowrun eBooks, they are bound by various agreements to WizKids, who typically have a very protective attitude towards their IP.
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Sep 13 2004, 10:51 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,640 |
Yeah.. so protective, it stopped them from making good shadowrun clix figures, and instead making stupid toy wannabe's for a market that they cant get ahold of.
Now if they made yu'gi oh figure clix, they'd be rolling in money.. But NOOO, they had to destroy OUR game. I would love to see a shadowrun clix 2.0 Make them the size of curren mage knight figs, and you not only have the clix market buying them, you have the RPG players buying them up as well. Stupid on their part. But I diegress...... Having PDF's would be a major Boon to fanpro. Not only would they get people like me to buy a whole new set of books over again, but if they COULD re-issue OOP stuff, they'd get me to buy tons more. I have three new players that just started that do not have the luxury of alot of money. The PDF's would save me TIME by having all of this on my laptop, and still have the books available to the players. As it stands now, I have to confiscate my handbook whenever something comes up, and then we spend time passing it around for people that have questions. I'll pay mega :nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen: to have PDF's |
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Sep 13 2004, 10:53 AM
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#34
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Hey hey hey, the Duels figures rocked.
~J |
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Sep 13 2004, 11:10 AM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 13-January 04 Member No.: 5,975 |
I totally agree, and I have a family member who is an attorney who agree's too. I don't have the case( U.S. Case) but i know in one instance a court HAS ruled that a person can transfer music to any medium they want, and because they bought it, it is there right to transfer it to anything they want, THEY OWN IT. So i said..Well what if i bought Dark Side of the Moon on tape in 1982, and don't own it now, Do i have the right to download it since i paid for it once, and are there any legal ramifications. She said " It would be on the Record Industry, not you to prove that you did NOT buy it in 1982, since they are accusing you of violating there copyright." This seems to create more problems than it solve since I interpit this to read " any of those cheap, poorly printed, POS books that i bough and feel apart in hours I now have the right to go out and find and download." I word in a related industry so i don't even have p2p software on my pc, but this is going to be a long, long, fight. Fanpro would be better of offering them at a very reduced price. Or even a website that requires a membership due to obtain them. |
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Sep 13 2004, 11:11 AM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 88 Joined: 13-January 04 Member No.: 5,975 |
Sorry Bull... Didnt see your post before my previous message...
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Sep 13 2004, 11:16 AM
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#37
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's what the nice shiny edit button is for.
~J |
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Sep 13 2004, 11:26 AM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
For you perhaps, but for those of us interested in minis for a RPG game, and not action figures to collect, they sucked. While they may be the finest action figures ever made, it makes no difference if you are looking for minis. While not a fan by any means of the whole clix base junk, I would at least consider buying small scale ones that are useful for table top gaming. Wizards figured out they could cover both markets with D&D and Star Wars, now WizKids needs to figure it out also. As for the PDFs, are they something you download and can then move around and access freely? Or an item you can only access online from a certain site? |
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Sep 13 2004, 11:27 AM
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#39
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
For those of us who were, say, looking for a game of Duels rather than Shadowrun minis or action figures to collect, they worked just fine too.
By the same token, my Playstation makes a pretty poor pocket calculator. ~J |
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Sep 13 2004, 12:26 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 3-December 03 From: Boston, Mass Member No.: 5,874 |
It would be interesting to see what Fanpro had in they're contract/license with wizkids for shadowrun. The fact that Wizkids own's all the IP for the books could be a big thorn in they're side. That sucks because I was really looking forward to getting ahold of some or all of the old books. I always thought FASA was stupid for not going with the PDF idea. We were talking about that in 1994 when acrobat was like version 1.0 or 2.0. That was a mistake on Fasa's part.
I think the key thing here is if you download the books don't ask/don't tell. You could be robbing Fanpro of greatly needed capital. If wizkids decides to sit on the old licenses and chooses not go ahead with the rerelease of the books I wonder ethically if it would be wrong. Originally publishers tried to fight used books stores for reselling they're books in the late 19th century. It's kind of like sneaking into a movie but on a bigger scale. Anyway you look at it your stealling in some manner even if the seat is empty. So just like our boys in the military Don't ask don't tell. Hopefully though Fanpro can get this going because it could be a good way to capitalize on revinue. What I was wondering how the DRM in acrobat works. I've never played with it or had a reason to. I wonder if they could just hire and pay an outside party to convert the books to PDF and sell the old books on a burned CD and distribute CD media rather than go through Drivethru? Does the DRM require some special settings that the publisher has to provide in the document, and can the file be burned to a CD and then copied back to the original computer if you have to reimage your computer? |
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Sep 13 2004, 12:59 PM
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#41
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
DriveThruRPG handles the DRM aspect of the files, the publisher provides the files to DTRPG and they handle the rest.
Yes. You'll need to reactivate your copy of Acrobat 6, which takes a few minutes and a 'net connection, but I've successfully backed up files, moved them between computers, OSes, etc. |
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Sep 13 2004, 03:30 PM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Reactivate Acrobat 6? Is this a special version from DTRPG?
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Sep 13 2004, 04:57 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
I don't think anyone, other than perhaps the RIAA and Harlan Ellison, cares if you make an electronic copy of your book for personal use. Certainly not any reasonable person. What is wrong is then passing out said copies or letting others use them. Even for free.
You making an electronic copy of your book for a friend who has their own hard copy is a gray area, in my opinion. What you do for yourself is one thing, opening up a copy center for others is something else. The post that started it all was someone mentioning that electronic copies made great thank you gifts for GM's at 'cons and the like. That's wrong. Or letting your group members use the electronic copy (because you still have the hardcopy around). That is wrong. Leave out legal and illegal. It is stealing from whomever wrote it/published it. You might find a loophole to make it legal. Still doesn't make it right. |
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Sep 13 2004, 06:36 PM
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#44
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
No. All version of Acrobat 6 and Adobe Reader 6 can open DRM-using eBooks. The process is explained on their site. |
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Sep 13 2004, 08:43 PM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
So the tricky part (much like software) would be how to prevent people from making copies of their books and giving them to all their friends.
I'll admit that using some format like PDF is very convenient, but without some type of control in place to restrict to paying user access FanPro would be throwing money away. Now I wan't PDF versions as bad as the next guy, I am just not sure how FanPro could do it the way the players want and still protect their investment. :( |
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Sep 13 2004, 09:25 PM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 2-August 02 Member No.: 3,057 |
Any kind of copy protection can and is going to be broken.
It has been already stated in this thread that you can get nearly any book as a PDF file, and if I really wanted to It would took me less then a weekend to digitalize my whole collections and distribute them under my friends and put them online. Get real. Copy protection does not work. What does work is, making good products so that people will want to support you by buying books so that you can make more books. Anyone ever heard of the Bean free library ? What really pisses me off is stuff like DMA or the lex disney taking rights away under the pretense that else I would become an evil criminal. |
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Sep 13 2004, 09:37 PM
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#47
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I don't know how big your collection is, but if you're at all concerned about quality you might be able to do it in a solid weekend of work. Less if you had access to a scanner designed to accept batches, but it's a lot less trivial than you're implying. ~J |
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Sep 14 2004, 05:20 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
The GE's Free Library is a great experiment that seems to be working. But I don't know if the model would work for game publishers. While they are fun to read (I bought them for years before I ever had an opportunity to play or GM Shadowrun) they are essentially reference books. That may or may not generate a different type of use. |
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Sep 18 2004, 09:53 AM
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#49
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
RPGs are also a much, much, MUCH smaller market than the regular book publishing industry deals in.
Also, the overhead costs to average sales ratio for RPGs are much worse than they are for Novels. Bull |
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Sep 21 2004, 12:28 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 3-December 03 From: Boston, Mass Member No.: 5,874 |
One thing I think needs to be noted. If your downloading copyrighted material and you don't own the book your basically stealling from a company that's trying to get on it's feet right now. Capital with Fanpro is very small. If you don't have the new books please just plot the money down and buy them. Without your support your going to kill the game. Literally. As fans buy what you can afford but don't screw over the franchise. It's just not nice. Hell most of Fanpro is made up of fans anyways. Your only hurting those who help. I've seen the downloads but I don't use them personally. If you want to support the game go to Stiggybabby's and buy the out of print stuff. They're prices are reasonable.
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 1st August 2025 - 07:35 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.