 Okay, the power of the doc., more ware than you can shack a stick at |
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 Sep 12 2004, 06:02 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543  |
When you sell your soul to Ares they tend to let you play in their toy stores.Yes, Ares has a clinic that would let mister doc do these things.
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Sep 12 2004, 06:03 PM
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#27
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
I will echo that sentiment. If you're really that good a surgeon (and by your description this guy has got to be among the top five most amazing surgeons on the planet), I cannot think of ANYTHING within the realm of reasonable plot why a corp would not just make your history just disappear to get you working for them. Even if you were some sick twisted serial baby killer I'm sure a few mega-corps would be willing to secretly supply you you with infants for your pleasure if it meant having your services. It just stretches credulity to have such a surgeon-with-the-hands-of-god running the shadows. -karma |
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Sep 12 2004, 06:20 PM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
It would be like finding out the CEO of Ares Macrotechnologies runs in the Seattle shadows as a hobby.
Possible, but pretty bloody unlikely. -Siege |
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Sep 12 2004, 06:29 PM
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#29
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Heh, I am *so* stealing that idea if I ever muster up the energy to GM. :P
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Sep 12 2004, 09:41 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
Ok, here are the problems I see: 1. Number of positive options cannot exceed the medical rating of the facility. For a beta clinic, that is a rating of 6 (M&M 145 under options, the rating table is on 144). So, six positive options, max. There is no limit I can find on how many times a single option can be added (the sentence saying the option can be used twice was referring to the negative options and doesn't go higher because two negative options is all you can have). So, you can use this to reduce the cost by 30% (40% max for a delta clinic) to get beta MBW 4 to 2.94 essence. If you can get the successes (see below). 2. Unless I am mistaken, each "Reduce Essence" option adds +2 to the target number (M&M 150). That means that adding the max (6) positive effects, increases the target number by +12 for a TN of 14 (accepting he could get the base number to 2, which I can see). If unlimited positives were allowed, you'd need 19 positives to get beta MBW 4 down to .4 (95% reduction), which means a TN of 40. Good luck, super doc, getting even one success (which adds 2 negative modifiers and no positives) much less the nine (or 21) needed for 6 (or 19) positives. If you don't get the nine positives (or 21), and you were counting on them to get you under an essence restraint, then you die, even though the surgery was successful. 3. Aren't players restricted to a max skill of 6 at creation (not counting specialization)? So, that's at least 36 good karma to get to Biotech 9 after character creation (maybe less, maybe more, depending on Intelligence). Someone actually did that to a biotech level 6 skill already? How? Because not only do you need to raise the skill, you'd need to have access to some serious cutting edge research facilities to learn that and spend much time getting there. This is a knowledge skill, not an active skill you can improve with practice... David |
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Sep 12 2004, 09:49 PM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Ewww Bad wording!! :noflame: Though i do get your meaning. Biotech is very in my eyes one of those skills you get from research and being taught as well as pratice. Allthough Someone had to learn it first....not sure how i rule that, but thankfully noone in my group has desided to learn a "fringe skill" at such high level (Yet) |
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Sep 12 2004, 09:56 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
Yeah, a little. What I mean is that Biotech skill can't really be learned by general practice (not like firearms, say). An active skill can be assumed to get better with experience (at least I rule it so in my games, up to a point). A knowledge skill must be improved by study and research, not general shadowrunning. Beyond a certain point (I think level 7, based on how the skill levels are described in SR3) you can't learn it from journals, you have to be doing your own experiments. |
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Sep 12 2004, 09:59 PM
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#33
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Actually, there isn't a canon requirement determining how a character can or can't improve any particular skill.
How would a character improve Biotech? Virtual trainer, donating care to the poor, moon-lighting as a street doc, unsavory experiments with soon-to-be ghoul food are just a few of the possibilities. As for a character starting with a 6 in any particular skill, you can apply similar arguments for any such skill that have been put forth regarding Biotech. As for having a high fringe skill - that's half the fun of creative characters. :grinbig: -Siege Edit: Where are you going to find such a mass of willing patients, besides a Shadowrun? :grinbig: |
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Sep 12 2004, 10:01 PM
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#34
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Now, if you wanted to complain Biotech covers too many skills, as does Computers and Electronics, you might have more of a case.
-Siege |
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Sep 12 2004, 10:11 PM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
biotech, or at least surgery, is also a very physical skill, in that it requires intense hand-eye coordination.
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Sep 12 2004, 10:22 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
True, there is no canon requirements...a GM can allow anything they want. In any reasonable level campaign raising any knowledge skill above 8 would be a problem, I would think (a power campaign or ultra-high level campaign might be different). Now, for an active skill, I could argue the following: Skill level 6 at start is a combination of knowledge and in-grained talent. So, raising it above that level is just the result of experience and further practice. I mean, someone has to be the best shooter in the world, or best race car driver or whatever, and these are skills you can raise just by practicing them. Knowledge skills, on the other hand, are different. Logically, you can raise them in two ways: 1) by study, which means someone else already did the research and published the findings (or you stole unpublished ones) 2) you can do the research to expand the envelope of metahuman knowledge. From the description in SR3, level 7 is the envelope for metahuman knowledge. Pure talent might take you to level 8 (your native ability to apply what you learn) but beyond that, you are beyond SOTA...you have to be creating your own knowledge. Now, in biotech, that means experimentation and testing. Now, you are right, a shadowrunner might be doing that, but I'd expect it to be roleplayed (you roam the barrens to kidnap squatters so you can implant cyberware in them...but you'd best have the facilities somewhere to practice in). These are not precisely canon, but they fit logically with the canon rules. |
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Sep 12 2004, 10:27 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Yup at Lvl 8 in a Knowledge Skill People recognise you as a major "player" in the field. Once there your creating Science not prefroming it.
Only problems is, Biotech is an active skill not knowledge thus for that you have to argue against Canon, not that this would be the first time someone has done so... |
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Sep 12 2004, 10:31 PM
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#38
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Biotech is one of those skills that is heavy on both theory and practical. Why do you think medical schools ask people to donate their bodies to them as well of having some of the most lectures at uni?
A virtual tutor could teach you both (the wonders of simsence) but it would likely not be available above rating 6 or 7 (a program cant teach you to be the best in the world as 8 is described). You could get texts from the matrix but you can only learn so much from a book and a dead body. Ultimately you will need to spend some time working on living people installing real cyber wear. You can ether sign on with a corp. that will issue you a medical licence or moonlight as a street dock. Edward |
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Sep 12 2004, 10:32 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
Yup, you are right, my bad. I keep thinking of it as medical skill. In that case, as a GM, I might allow a Biotech level 9...but the good karma cost just went up to 48 good karma...
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Sep 12 2004, 10:47 PM
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#40
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Look at some of the private instruction available for Handgun and other firearms.
Thunder Ranch, for example. To raise a shooter's ability in these training facilities requires more than just time on the range. Otherwise I could become a Marine sniper quality shooter by spending a lot of time on the range. -Siege |
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Sep 13 2004, 03:37 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
You could if you had the talent. It is easier if you have instruction, but instruction is not required. |
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Sep 13 2004, 04:19 PM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Uh. Yeah.
-Siege |
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Sep 13 2004, 04:35 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
You don't think you could learn to be a Marine Sniper with practice and reviewing a few manuals? People do it all the time, at least the marksmanship part. You can learn the tactics and the like from readily available manuals. If you have the talent and the drive, which we must assume any Shadowrunner with level 7 or 8 firearms would have, you need never run into an instructor...at least beyond the basics, which occur before character creation.
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Sep 13 2004, 05:31 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah. that's kinda what the manuals are for.
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Sep 13 2004, 05:36 PM
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#45
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Folks, if that's what you believe - far be it from me to try and dissuade you.
-Siege |
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Sep 13 2004, 07:01 PM
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#46
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Siege...you are completely right =)
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Sep 13 2004, 07:40 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
It should be noted, I never intended to imply they could become MARINES that way, merely to reach that level of skill at shooting, even under adverse conditions. I'll stop trying to persuade you as well, however. |
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Sep 13 2004, 08:22 PM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Saying you need an instructor to acheive a certain skill level isn't fully correct, regardless of the skill you are talking about.
It will certainly be easier, and sometimes much, much easier - true. But there is nothing you cannot learn from study, practice and trial and error if you are willing to put down the effort required. Even if it takes half a lifetime of dedication, it isn't impossible. However, there are plenty of things most people could not hope to excel at in a whole lifetime, if they lack access to the necessary study material. This simply because the subjects are so advanced and require so much base knowledge that you simply don't have time to learn it all by yourself. If instructors were an absolute necesity for any skill, no one would have that skill, since the first person to learn it wouldn't have had an instructor. Of course, if you include instructive texts in the concept 'instructor', then they are necessary to a certain degree for some skills. |
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Sep 13 2004, 09:05 PM
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#49
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Try learning urban breach tactics by yourself using manuals and see how well it holds up when you actually have to perform one.
It's pretty important to have people who have actually done something in order for you to learn it most effectively. Now if we're talking getting better at something you already know...that's a different story, and trial and error + practice are about the only way to get better. |
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Sep 13 2004, 10:32 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'd say it's the opposite, actually. anybody can pick up a manual and learn the basics of urban breach tactics or anything else. turning that working knowlege into an instinctive response requires training and/or direct experience.
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