Runners form 'extreme-MENSA' league, Does anyone else think Reaction's silly? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Velocity]

Does anyone else have an issue with Reaction being figured from Quickness and Intelligence?

My problem is that, like most game systems I've played (White Wolf, HERO, AD&D, etc.), combat emphasizes--and rightly so--acting quickly and often. The combatant with the most frequent opportunities to act usually wins (duh). Naturally then, Shadowrun PCs bend over backwards to maximize their Initiative, since this does two things:

1. Places them higher up the initiative totem pole (i.e. who acts first, second, third, etc.);

2. Provides them with more opportunities to act.

As a result, Reaction tends to be a priority Attribute. Since it's figured from Quickness and (more problematically) Intelligence, I find that PCs end up looking like a bunch of pulitzer-prize-winning chess grandmasters. Apparently, when Nobel laureates get tired of the spotlight, they run the shadows.

In theory, I understand why Reaction is figured from these two stats. I follow the logic, I just don't like what happens when one follows the logic all the way to its conclusion: characters (PCs and NPCs alike) with a whopping high Intelligence that doesn't suit their personality or background, just so that they can keep up in combat, which is an integral part of SR games.

My (tentative) solution would be to make Reaction an Attribute like the others: have the PCs spend Attribute points on it at character creation. This would require tweaking the priority system a bit, to give them more points at each level, but should be manageable.

Questions, comments? Am I completely out to lunch on this?

[Arethusa]

While I understand your complaint, the current system is definitely not set up to deal with the added cost of another core attribute.

The group I was/am playing with had straight 6s for everyone's intelligence (except for one guy; he was kind of an idiot with an intelligence of 5). Not that it didn't make sense for anyone, but it was questionable as to whether everyone's stats actually fit his or her respective backgrounds.

That said, I must admit I'm less a fan of a hard numbers rework in this case than I am just talking to your group of players and coming to a sane solution. Namely, that characters whose personalities and backgrounds wouldn't mandate high intelligence don't powergame just to take crazy stats. Still, this won't work with every group (mine included, but, then again, nothing remotely sane works with these people, really), which leaves you with the unpleasant task of reworking all the numbers to allow for an additional core attribute. Alternatively, might want to halve the effects of intelligence on reaction or cap intelligence's benefits at 3 or 4.

[Ancient History]

<cough> Intelligence is not so much a matter of what you know, as how effective you are at processing information. It might be more accurate to call the game stat "perception" rather than "intelligence," but the point is that your reaction time is based on how quickly your brain can get the message that "Now would be a good time to draw the gun."

I consider 9 to be a genius-level intellect, anything over that is superhuman.

[Veracusse]

Likewise, Shadowrunning is an occupation that requires a decent amount of intelligence, and quickness too. Most professionals should easily have at least a 4,5, or 6 in either stat to be realistically running the shadows. If they didn't then they would most likely end up being cannon foder or dog chow. Maybe you need to ask your players to act more like their character would, i.e. intelligently.

Veracusse

[Lucyfersam]

SR Intelligence isn't really just perception, it includes pretty much every form of intelligence (other than social intelligence, which is part of charisma), it governs your ability to learn, to memorize, creativity, all of it gets lumped into a single stat. Part of the intelligence stat does affect reaction, thus the averaging with quickness. This has some problems, but overall I find it works out ok, and is far simpler than things like the White Wolf system where it is broken into 3 parts. I also usually don't have too much problem with people boosting there intelligence just for reaction, as it gets you one point of reaction per 2 points intelligence, it's just not worth it to try to squeeze every last reaction point out at the expense of many other things. Most characters I make have intelligence of 5 or 6, but that's because I usually play magical or technical based characters, the few combat characters I've made have intelligence 4, rarely 3, but they have so many other ways to boost their reaction, the extra point out of a high intelligence just isn't worth the effort to get it that high. I also tend to agree with the sentiment that a reasonable intelligence is required to be a decent runner, 3 is pretty questionable and below 3 is unthinkable, a recipe to get yourself and your team killed.

[DigitalMage]

You could try and follow how the Intelligence attribute works for critters, that is it is divided into two rating e.g. 2/4, one is the Intellect of the character in terms of IQ, puzzle solving etc, and the other is Perception.

To replicate this for characters have players at Char Gen buy the Intelligence stat as normal, then if they want to they can split it like a specialisation e.g. the initial intelligence is 4, they then state that their Intellect is 3 and Perception is 5.

Reaction would be calculated from Perception and used for Perception tests, whilst Intellect would determine starting Knowledge Skill Points and karma cost for increasing them in game.

If using the Build Points system Intellect and Perception both costs a number of BP equal to their rating (rather than double the rating). Therefore you could have ratings of 3/4.

In terms of karma cost to raise these stats after char gen, then simply halve what the normal cost would be to raise Intelligence to the same rating.

The good thing about this is that unless, and until, a character wants to differentiate their Intellect from Perception they can create characters and increase Intelligence with Karma with no changes.

[Phylos Fett]

[Arethusa]

Better way to do this might be with an edge that adds a certain number of dice to perception based tests only.

[Phylos Fett]

[kenny26]

i know what u mean, velocity... players always wanna be super human in some way.
but it's not as big a problem as you make it sound like.

Lucyfersam's got a point when he says intelligense isn't worth going for if you want high reaction.
what players usually do hunt is cyberware like boosted reflexes or bioware like muscle toner.

and also, i think shadowrunners are quite intelligent in general. the job demands a high IQ and/or a sharp mind.
and also, in the book, it says that having a high intelligense attribute doesn't necessarily turn you into a genious.
a person can have spend most of his life in the slums and never opened a book, but still have a high intellignse.

[Arethusa]

Yes, that every cop would have. For example, an edge that, for each level, gives an extra die to perception tests in an investigative environment might work for a detective. Customise and make broader depending on the character. What it really comes down to is training and/or innate ability with sensory perception independant of the person's intelligence, and though my personal feeling is that it should be an additional mental stat, that's obviously not a modification suited for the game as it's currently set up.

[Sphynx]

Back when I first started on this forum, I discussed this a bit. We had, at that time, House Ruled that Reaction and Perception were base attributes, not calculated. We increased the number of Attribute points, BP's available etc at Char Gen to compensate. In the Astral, Reaction used Perceotion as it's counterpart.

We're back to basics now, but I agree, it's dumb. Then again, Quickness being more dexterity and adroitness seems like a dumb attribute as well. :P

Sphynx

[BitBasher]

Just a complimentary skill to intllignece called "perception" used for perception purposes. Make it either knowledge or active whichever suits you. Problem solved.

[motorfirebox]

they've already got one. it's called Stealth. Stealth has an Awareness specialization, that--guess what!--acts as a complimentary test to perception.

sure, it's kinda odd that all the perceptive guys are also all the sneaky guys. but, hey, nothing's perfect.

[Sunday_Gamer]

He's completely right, btw.

I remember the collective of Sams with Encephalons, because it boosts your INT!! Every fricken Sam was apparently a genius, and yes, that is fricken stupid.

Sunday.

[DigitalMage]

[Kagetenshi]

[Talia Invierno]

Tangenting back from perception/intelligence to the original question: I'd follow up on a couple of the earlier responses and suggest that Reaction consists not only of being able to react quickly, but also knowing how to react: quick (and hopefully accurate) analysis of available information.

Returning to the perception/intelligence stream, this suggests that it isn't only the perception aspect of intelligence (or whatever variant you houserule that constitutes perception) that matters.

[Arethusa]

It's true, though. Most won't. Most of the one who survive, however, will. That doesn't mean people are restricted to playing intelligent characters in the shadows— after all, statistically, most shouldn't be— but it does mean that most people, wanting to play characters that'll survive, won't want to play characters of average or below average intelligence.

Honestly, I don't agree with this, and think that people can and ashould play interesting characters, some intelligent and some not, but it's going to vary from person to person, group to group, and game to game.

[Kagetenshi]

I do have a player in a game whose character has an intelligence of 1. He's survived just fine, and actually done quite well, though that is admittedly in no small part due to what I call the Snoog Factor (Snoog being the character's name).
Basically, he either rolls disproportionately well or rolls 1s, and most of those 1s are on perception tests ("You see a bunny.").

~J

[Velocity]

Wow, thanks to everyone for their replies. Let's see, where to begin...

[kevyn668]

[Hero]

The definition of intelligence is very broad indeed, you can be as dumb as a brick when it comes to academics but have the greatest common sense. Besides like some already said, intelligence is also how fast your mind reacts and processes information. If you have a problem with players making characters with uber intelligence, make the opposition that much more smarter. If you can't see increasing the intelligence on the opposition, then stuff them full of ware that increase there reaction and/or intelligence (i.e. cerebral booster, reaction enhancer, enhanced articulation, wired reflexes, boosted reflexes, synaptic accelerator, and move-by-wires). If the players want to be uber, make there opposition that much more uber.

[Talia Invierno]

kevyn668: wouldn't that be similar to the distinction between a passive use of skill (GM rolls it secretly, without telling the player unless something out of the "usual" was noticed) and active use of skill (PC listening/watching for something)?

Edit: re distinct and different uses of intelligence, the GM/group choice is to keep the attribute as general as possible (with the interpretive slack being taken up by individual roleplaying), to keep the attribute as general as possible and just accept that it will be used for everything possible, to subdivide the attribute (Hero-style) into more specialised attributes, to create specific complementary skills, or to create distinct active skills. The specific choice will depend on the individual group's style of play as well as the availability of karma (more skills, more need of karma, the more handicapped the player differently specialised).

House-ruling: we use Essence in place of Intelligence as a passive perceptive skill for events involving perceiving mana flow, and as a complementary skill for events involving living persons/spellcasting.

[Arethusa]

Worth noting that 3 is average intelligence, not the intelligence of someone average people would call smart or above average. 4 is above average.