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Axe
post Sep 12 2004, 11:30 PM
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I'm a bit iffy on how much dammage explosives can do. I have a runner who is an insane ex-militayr type (ex as in killed 2 officers and escaped to another country) who has a seperate lifestyle just to store his CXII. Last session we left off with him planning to blow up a medium sized apartment building (!!) and I was wondering just how much explosives he will need.
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Luke Hardison
post Sep 13 2004, 12:51 AM
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IMO, taking down buildings and things are best handled in roleplaying, especially if he's damaging a building and not dealing damage to individuals or vehicles. Make up a 'base amount' of C12 (I'd say 16kg per floor is a good starting place) and have him roll Demolitions. Divide the base amount by the number of successes to see how much it actually takes him. Alternately, make him split his successes between base time and base compound amount.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Sep 13 2004, 01:15 AM
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Make him find each and every major support. Make him set up enough explosives on each one to knock it down. Make sure he is told repeatedly that if the explosions go off in the wrong sequence, there will be a 5 in 6 chance of it falling in his direction. Make him roll demolitions for each support.

For each support he will need a sum of damage code and successes (on a demo test vs. 2) equal to no less than triple the barrier rating of the support. (well, that should reduce the barrier rating by 4, which I think would be enough to let gravity do the rest)

If you choose to use the "1 meter hole" basis to determine if the support breaks, he'll only need to surpass the barrier rating on each support.
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Johnson
post Sep 13 2004, 11:17 AM
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Imploding or exploding. There are two different techniques. Someone with demolitions would blow up any thing, but to take down a building there are many factor to put into consideration.

He could go down to the lower basements and plant enough C12 to blow up the supporting pillars.

This would be a lengthy process.
Here is a good site to peruse


http://www.controlled-demolition.com/
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Backgammon
post Sep 13 2004, 02:00 PM
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Once again, a nice "HELLO" at the folks of Homeland Security :D
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Chance359
post Sep 13 2004, 02:19 PM
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Do you think they even pay attention anymore?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 13 2004, 02:59 PM
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They have to. Otherwise we might start talking about stuff like how the president is car-bombed or how to kill the most people with 30 rounds with an AK and they wouldn't know to elevate the Nationwide Threat Level.
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hobgoblin
post Sep 13 2004, 03:55 PM
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personaly the only problem with explosives (as in the nongrenade type) is the rule that all explosives should work against double the barrier rateing.

while this makes sense for grenades and so on that are mostly shrapnel i think that for the commersial to c-12 stuff that rule should have a special disregard. atleast then one stick put on the surface of a glass panel can have a chance of breaking it.

but i just recalled that i belive i watched something over on discovery when someone did put some explosives (think it may have been det cord) onto a sheet of some material or other and detonated it. the surface mostly didnt get a scratch as it was easyer for the force to travel out into the air then try to get thru the surface. but afterwards he but a bag filled with water on top of the explosive stuff and again detonated and that time the surface was penetrated. something about the water deflecting the force of the explosive towards the sheet rather then letting it escape into the air around.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 13 2004, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
atleast then one stick put on the surface of a glass panel can have a chance of breaking it.

Yup, this is a great place to start fixing SR explosives. The next would be the weird Blast ratings, but that was beaten to death here less than 2 weeks ago, and has been discussed so many times before it's probably better to let anyone interested just read those threads.

Then you could introduce some way to make Demolitions significant with larger amounts of explosives, or any amount of powerful explosives. Like adding 25% (or 20%, or 10%) to the Power of the explosive charge per success on the Demolitions test instead of +1 Power. Then you could make the lower-end explosives more powerful, so that the difference between "Commercial", C-4 and C-12 is less than the utterly ridiculous quadruple progression (IRL, C-4 is about 1.2-1.3 x as powerful as TNT).

Then, your explosive rules would be pretty dang sweet, far more realistic, far more believable, and simpler to boot.

Directing the blast, as with stacking any heavy crap on top of the explosive to blast through something on the other side, does make a huge difference in effect. This is why the Demolitions check must remain key to penetrating thick and hard stuff with small amounts of explosives.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Sep 13 2004, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
personaly the only problem with explosives (as in the nongrenade type) is the rule that all explosives should work against double the barrier rateing.

page 119, the double barrier rating is evaded by setting up the explosives specifically to damage the wall and you get to add successes on a TN 2 demolitions test to the power of the explosive.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 13 2004, 04:42 PM
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The point being that someone without Demolitions skill, or without the inclination to use it, won't manage to break a standard window pane with a full kilogram of TNT -- only slightly damage it. Without Demolitions, you need ~1.8kg of TNT to break through a window. I think you'll agree that's not very reasonable.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Sep 13 2004, 05:02 PM
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No, because to set up the kg you would need to roll intelligence against a 6. If you fail to get any successes, you blow up, if you get a single success, it shatters the glass.
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Mr. Woodchuck
post Sep 13 2004, 05:34 PM
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remember comercial explosives are only fully effective in a 1m radius, and degrade power from there. so if you want to take down an entire building you will need explosive on most of the support colums as each colum will be to far away to to be hit with charges from other colums. Also the demolitions skill will alow the player to set the charges, but architecture, structural engineering, or electronics checks may have to be made to plan out the removal of an entie building with minimal time and equiptment. Have your player start with the basic you can blow up 1m of building per success on all of your checks, base time 1hour. Even if yor player has 10dice to demolitions it will cost him a whole load of time and money to demolish a building.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 13 2004, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
No, because to set up the kg you would need to roll intelligence against a 6. If you fail to get any successes, you blow up, if you get a single success, it shatters the glass.


Bob: INT 3 character with no Demolitions skill. Let's give Bob 1kg of TNT with attached blasting cap and fuse set up and ready (rules-wise, attached Timer with a particular time, 30 seconds, already set) -- all it takes is to place the explosive and light the fuse/press the button.

If Bob wants to use this TNT to break open a window during a run, would you force the player to roll his 3 INT dice, making the TNT blow up in his face if he doesn't get a single 6?

The rules in question are quite explicit about using Demolitions to place the explosive being optional. They go "If a character uses Demolitions Skill to place explosive charges, [blah blah]". Always requiring the Demolitions roll is very much a house rule, and a rather silly one at that. Most human beings, even if they've never handled explosives before, given such a ready-made explosive charge would be capable of placing it on a window sill, or taping it right on the window pane, and lighting the fuse/pressing a button.

In my games, the majority of explosives use is of this exact type: characters with little or no Demolitions skill use explosive charges which have been set up in advance (complete "bombs"). IRL, that sort of thing is nearly impossible to fuck up -- you're as likely to shoot yourself accidentally.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Sep 13 2004, 05:46 PM
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RangerJoe
post Sep 13 2004, 05:58 PM
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In making a complete "bomb" device, someone (PC, NPC, whatever) has used a demolitions or a demolitions B/R skill. If Bob were to try and make a "bomb" of his own, I would require him to roll those 3 int dice, and learn the hard way that you should read a book/get military training/surf the net before attempting to use explosives.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Sep 13 2004, 06:09 PM
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Don't have the SR3 handy atm, but there are 3 specific page references to Demolitions about 1) Damage, 2) Blast radius and 3) The skill, IIRC.

I'll update this thread once I get a hold of my BBB.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 13 2004, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (RangerJoe)
In making a complete "bomb" device, someone (PC, NPC, whatever) has used a demolitions or a demolitions B/R skill. If Bob were to try and make a "bomb" of his own, I would require him to roll those 3 int dice, and learn the hard way that you should read a book/get military training/surf the net before attempting to use explosives.

Yeah, you absolutely should have at least Demolitions-1 before building a bomb (though fucking that up can be pretty hard, too, as long as you're not trying to make it hard to defuse and aren't going for any delicate stuff). But the Demolitions (no Demo B/R) test performed when creating the device doesn't count when considering the effects of the explosion, only the successes from the "placement" test do.

The latter test is optional, and currently makes it almost really damn hard for people without the Demolitions skill to use explosive charges to get anything done.

Apart from the no-Demolitions skill characters, there's also collateral damage that could really use a no-doubled-BR-vs-explosives rule. Canonically, if you're blowing up a wall 1 meter away from a window, you can do it with 7kg of TNT without breaking the glass. You could use 18kg of TNT to crack a safe embedded in a normal concrete wall in a house without risking a hole in the wall. Etc etc.
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Axe
post Sep 13 2004, 07:02 PM
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Thanks for the input guys. This is gonna be a lot harder than he thought it would be :D
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Johnson
post Sep 14 2004, 04:10 AM
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Well 18 KG of any explosive is a little excessive to take out a strong room door.

But there again the are different ratings of strong room doors. and 18kg of any explosive use wrong would not help.

Going back to the Building story and with what is mentioned about the explosive.

In order to get an explosive to work well you have to get the explosive in to a controlled enviroment.

packing TNT around a supporting structure and detonating it is going to get you minimal damage to supporting strucure. No contolled enviroment.

Now take the same TNT and drill holes into the the supporting structure and place the TNT sticks in to the holes and then detonated it. Controlled enviroment.

Your results are going to be better.

Now if you take the Hamburger effect, that exlosive is going kick some A##.

Game machanics: 1 KG TNT

1 Uncontrolled enviroment. wall takes say 16D -1/M no rebounds from direct exlosive. Well lets hope it drops the support.

2 controlled enviroment. 16D now with a 50mm Dia hole well Lets work it out.

1000mm = 1m
50mm dia = 20 rebounds in a meter.

for power 16 to deminish 16 Meters x 20 rebounds a meter

okay I hope my maths works here.
20 x 16 = 320D before first power level is used.
20 x 15 = 300D before second power level used.
I will stop there. as by now the wall would well and trully be toast. but it is not going to effect the other reinforced pillars.

What on can do to strengthen the walls is add reinforced walls and metal reinforced to gether make the use of more explosives.

Hope this will help
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 14 2004, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (Johnson)
Game machanics: 1 KG TNT

1 Uncontrolled enviroment. wall takes say 16D -1/M no rebounds from direct exlosive. Well lets hope it drops the support.

If you're using canon Damage Codes and Blast Ratings, that should be 3D -3/m. In the UE-case, that won't even scratch anything but light wood-and-paper interior walls (and won't break windows, as previously mentioned). The CE-case (portrayed in SR by the Demolitions placement test) could pump that up to 8D if you've got Demolitions-6, which will blow a 0.5meter hole in a basic concrete wall.

Playing around with loads of rebounds is certainly fun, though.
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Necro Tech
post Sep 14 2004, 06:22 PM
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Just a quick question, why is he trying to blow up said building? If it is for illegal means, start from the basement, add gasoline and flour or bring O2 cannisters into the basement first, let them disperse and then blow the place up. Its much faster to destroy a building when you don't care what happens to it or its surroundings. Trying to "drop" a building safely requires a small company.
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lokugh
post Sep 15 2004, 12:49 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
They have to. Otherwise we might start talking about stuff like how the president is car-bombed or how to kill the most people with 30 rounds with an AK and they wouldn't know to elevate the Nationwide Threat Level.

The President isn't carbombed. The President uses ritual dragon magic to suicide to save the world from an invasion of demons from Beyond. Wonder what that would do to the Terror Threat Level? Do they have an Ultraviolet level? Or, actually, an Infrared level (since they seem to be descending the spectrum).
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 15 2004, 12:55 AM
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O2 doesn't explode, it just helps things burn really well.

~J
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Clyde
post Sep 15 2004, 02:08 AM
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I think that's what the gasoline and flour are for. He's talking about a cheap fuel air bomb, which will rip it up in any enclosed space. . .
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 15 2004, 08:10 AM
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That would work, but the or suggested to me he meant just oxygen.

~J
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