 Eyelights in natural cybereyes..., ...is it possible ? |
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 Aug 31 2003, 04:18 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 191 Joined: 26-February 02 From: East Jerusalem Member No.: 2,022  |
I can't see a reson why it wouldn't be, but... |
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Aug 31 2003, 05:01 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Did you mean eyelights in natural eyes?
If so, well...I frequently install the basic eyelights in natural eyes. They work great with natural low light vision and nictating membranes. I mean, you can install any individual eye cyber implant into natural eyes as well as cyber eyes, right? So there shouldn't be a problem. |
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Aug 31 2003, 05:42 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 191 Joined: 26-February 02 From: East Jerusalem Member No.: 2,022 |
Sure, natural eyes... :sleepy:
Does that work like a regular flashlight ? I mean, usually flashlights are very useful to light the area you're aiming at, but impedes your vision outside the beam-lit zone. Is that the same for eyelights ? |
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Aug 31 2003, 10:21 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
The benefits of eyelights are established in Man & Machine via the eyelights+(whatever vision system). Since eyelights do give benefits, not penalties, they presumably cover the entire range of vision a person has. After all, they're shining out of the eyes and thus cover whatever the eyes can see. |
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Aug 31 2003, 11:20 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 4-August 02 Member No.: 3,064 |
I thought eyelights were permitted in cyber eyes only, like the eye guns and the lasers. ??
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Sep 1 2003, 01:15 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,478 |
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Sep 1 2003, 02:49 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
That doesn't say "cybereyes only," it just gives an example of mounting them in cybereyes. Is there another rule that says eyelights are limited to cybereyes? |
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Sep 1 2003, 05:05 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 224 Joined: 6-April 02 From: ab.ca Member No.: 2,522 |
I don't know how an eyelight system could go into a natural eye... that just seems so wrong. I honestly don't know enough about the human eye to know if there is space such that you could wire up a light projection device that powerful in. I really can't see eye-lights being considered a "retinal mod." Which is the other method of eye modification.
But the only thing remotely canon is implied by the first line of the description: "This light system mounts high-powered, low-heat lights in the cybereye that channel a tight, polarized beam outward along a path parallel to the optical center of the eye." (Emphasis mine.) But none of this is cut and dried... |
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Sep 1 2003, 05:12 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,142 |
If you don't like the idea of having them in natural eyes, just fudge it a little and say that you've got them embedded in the orbital bones around the eye. They'd use a little servo motor to aim them wherever the eyes are aimed.
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Sep 1 2003, 05:17 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,478 |
that's not an example, cray. that's the introductory text for the item. i personally wouldn't have a problem fudging the rules around that, and i'll agree that it's not an ironclad ruling, but i think you'd have to stretch to say that it wasn't intended.
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Sep 1 2003, 05:37 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
For now putting aside the point of what the rules do/do not say (we've agreed it's ambiguous and now I have enough doubts that I'm going to e-mail the SR info address), I'd like to address the feasibility of putting lights in natural eyes on a purely fluff/speculation basis, and make rude comments about whole milk. I figure the following about eyelights: 1) if eyelights can go in cybereyes (some models of which may mimic the architecture of natural eyes), then they can go in natural eyes. 2) There's several possibilities for getting eyelights in natural eyes. Putting them around the eyes as Wish suggested is one example. Others might include: --Putting the eyelights on the surface of the eyes, the whites. Use some layer of electroluminescent polymer with an opaque backing. Real ELPs meet the eyelight fluff of both low heat and lower power demands. Add an upper layer of microlenses to polarize the light, or bonus points if 2060s polymer deposition is so precise the ELP layer is auto-polarizing. --Putting an ELP layer in the eye, over the retina, so the light beam is automatically focused at the same spot the eyes are looking at. Again, the backing would need to be opaque...or better yet, polarized, so external light (and reflected ELP light) can reach the retina, but light directly emitted from the eyelights won't blind the eye. Think of this as an active variant of cat's reflective layer in their eyes. After all, the basic eyelights don't have to be tiny light bulbs (though, IIRC, the super flash eyelight system does use bulbs...I wouldn't want that in my natural eye.) Some ultra-thin electroluminescent polymer or light emitting semiconductor layer would work much better in the natural eye. And whole milk. WTF was I thinking? "Oh, you're sick, having some vitamin-rich whole milk." Bleh, this stuff is like liquid butter. I'm going back to skim milk and vitamin pills. |
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Sep 1 2003, 06:01 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Ah-hah! Food for thought about eyelights and natural eyes:
Page 49, Man & Machine, "Visibility Modifers Table." Note in the column "Low Light w/Eyelights," there are entries for natural low light vision augmented by eyelights. I'd figure from that that eyelights can go in natural eyes. But, I'm still spamming the SR help line for confirmation. |
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Sep 1 2003, 06:40 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 224 Joined: 6-April 02 From: ab.ca Member No.: 2,522 |
Hmmm... The ambiguity continues, but I'll consider the natural low-light w/ eye-lights column of the visibility table to be in favor of natural augmentation. It seems to be an implicit affirmation of eye-light retinal mods, which although is not an explicit comment, it's more than I noticed last night.
Although they could, I've never figured cybereyes to operate in the same fashion as natural eyes. I figured something more along the lines of camera minaturization, which would leave more room for servos to move the eye and extra goodies. So I don't really follow point #1. My hesitation is that most things that are actually put in the eye, I think would interfere with it's operation. Most everything else can be attached behind the eye to manipulate the retina or the optical nerve. Eye-lights would require to be in front of the retina, which is where I think it gets sketchy. But your examples in #2 seem to work that out. I hope you don't mind if I steal your fluff, Cray. ;) 1% milk is also where it's at. I used to drink skim, but switched to pure water instead of "blue water." The 1% is a treat when I drink milk. But that whole milk stuff is far beyond the realm of that which man was meant to drink by the gallon. |
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Sep 3 2003, 03:20 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,478 |
hm. good point, cray. i'll take the table over vague wording any day, especially since i think it makes more sense for it to be possible.
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Sep 3 2003, 05:54 AM
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#15
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
As an aside here, this is a trick question, read the thread title and ask yourself how someone can have natural cybereyes :D
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Sep 3 2003, 07:16 AM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
One of the more unknown species of awakened tree: the cybereye hemlock. The seeds of the cybereye hemlock are fully fuctional replacement eye systems, often with strange collections of customized features, and each one perfectly fitted to the optical nerve of a mammal. I did not say the optical nerve of any mammal, or that they grow in pairs. Since each eye will specifically fit one species, each eye grows independantly, and each eye has its own set of visual options, the greatest challenge is finding a pair that match. Natural cybereyes have a bio-index of .5, and might come with any combination of mods you want. They cost in the 100k to 700k range due to the sheer levels of irritation caused by the geographic preference of the tree, and the annoyance of finding an appropriate pair. Rumors that the seeds remain active and will actually sprount once inserted in a mammilian host are purely fiction, propogated by companies who choose to build their cybereyes. |
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Sep 3 2003, 07:59 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
Re: column in the table
At first I thought, "oh, well thats a good case." But then I realized its worthless. Think about it. Elves have natural low light vision. Cybereys do not. Cyber retinal mods still do not, just because its a retinal mod doesnt mean its now natural. Which means that the eyelights natural vision column can, in effect, never be used. There is no scenario that would provide a combination of effects for it to come up. The one *possible* exception is if the GM allows an adept to take it as an enhanced sense, in which case he gets full levels and the ability counts natural. But, given the fact that this obivously requires technology to implement Im not sure a case for such a GM ruling could be made. In any event, most eye mods in M&M specify if they are cyber only, as the default setting seems to be "retinal mod ok". So as long as it doesnt say somewhere in the block that its cyber only, it isnt. Whether or not the "in the cybereye" line counts is again, left up to GM interpretation. I think Id have to rule cyber only, the bulbs and way it has to reflect straight back at the eye make it seem a bit too mechanical for a simple retinal mod. But thats me. Bottom line, email the FAQ peeps or ask your GM. Because this ones a grey zone. |
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Sep 3 2003, 12:07 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Er...so what? You install eyelights in natural elven eyes, and thus you have natural low light vision working with cybernetic eyelights. Thus the column is used. The eyelight implants don't take away natural vision enhancements like Elvish low light. |
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Sep 3 2003, 12:15 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Bah. It seems the Visibility Modifiers Table is a moot point. The e-mails to Shadowrun's question line have been answered:
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Sep 3 2003, 07:55 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 224 Joined: 6-April 02 From: ab.ca Member No.: 2,522 |
Actually, it's technically no longer moot. ;) So the column was a mistake... |
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