Putting his thing up in a (Semi) Official way., Driving and Non-VCR Reaction/Initiative Options

[SpeedFreak]

Allright people, lets get to disscussin'! :D

[Eyeless Blond]

The key here, I think, would be "physically". Drive by datajack and you don't get the bonuses to physical Reaction/Init that most cyber gives you.

I'd even be fine with non-Riggers getting a Control Pool equal to their Reaction (or maybe half their Reaction while driving physically?). Of course it'd only be useful for dodging and soaking, but it'd be useful.

[durthang]

Granted, I know I'm going against half of cannon by mentioning realism, but it seems realistic to me. After all, the reason a rigger doesn't get the bonuses is because they aren't physically driving. Having fast hands doesn't help when one is using a VCR. On the other hand, when you're actually using the wheel, having fast hands will help quite a bit...

[Moon-Hawk]

I'm going with 'other' because for me, the jury is still out. On the one hand, I understand that the designers didn't want anyone to be able to be a better rigger than a rigger, but I really don't think that there's any danger of that. There's SO much that a rigger can do that no one else can do, mostly because of their control pool and drone networks. Not to mention security riggers. On the other hand, I don't like the current system of "you either have a rigger or you don't." What I mean by this is, the way things are, a rigger on a rigged 10-speed bicycle can take a couple of citymasters without too much trouble. (Okay, I MAY be exaggerating slightly, but hopefully it makes my point) If a wired up street sam could drive a bit better than Joe Average, or a physical adept could use their reactions and some IA:drive, that would be really fun. It would help there to be a spectrum of drivers. Instead of road-clowns at one end, a huge gap, then riggers at the other, you'd have everything in between. With riggers still at the top. They still wouldn't have good sensors or a control pool. The rigger will still win, but at least they can give him a challenge.

However, I'm still not convinced that giving everyone their full reflex bonus is the right way to go either. Count improved reaction but not extra dice? Extra dice but not reaction? Reaction enhancements are counted as one level lower? Frag it, give them their full bonus? Frag it, give 'em nothing, if they wanted to drive be a rigger? I don't know. Let's discuss.

[SpeedFreak]

[SpeedFreak]

Oh and for all the no votes, give us some reasons for your vote. Tell us why this is a BAD THING, kay?

[Moon-Hawk]

I never made a statement that strong. I just said that I'm not sure they should get it all.
I'm concerned that giving every wired/boosted/enhanced character their full bonus will take too much away from the riggers. I think full bonus is probably okay, I'm just not sure.

On another point, characters using a datajack to drive (not a VCR) are still driving manually. I can't remember the datajack bonus. Is it +1 Reaction, -1 Handling, or both? My point is, it's still manual driving. They get a virtual dashboard to help out, and a lot more information about the vehicle, but they're still looking with their eyes and steering with their arms, so if you're talking about giving full bonus to manual driving, it should probably apply to people driving with just a datajack as well. The jack is a relatively insignificant bonus, anyway, it's certainly not going to be the game-breaking factor, here.

[tjn]

Keep in mind that the two biggest advantages a rigger has over a physical driver can not be duplicated in any other way. Eyeless Blond got one of them with the Control Pool, and the other is the TN mods for having a VCR.

Since vehicles have trouble soaking anything that gets past their armor, not being hit in the first place is very much preferable. With the gobs of Contol Pool available to a dedicated rigger, they can dodge damn near anything.

And with a dedicated rigger, their TN is most often a 2 and only rarely does it even climb above a 4. And when it rises above 6 it's akin to landing a helicopter at night, in the middle of a thunderstorm, on uneven ground. Something no normal driver has a chance in hell of accomplishing.

There is no danger what-so-ever of riggers having their niche encroached upon by non-riggers, so I personally see no need to take such a hard line with non-riggers.

However, I feel compelled to point out pg 140 of the BBB, under Determine Initiative, it specifically states that bonuses from boosted and wired reflexes, adept increases in abilities and magic do not effect a driver's initiative. Canon's fairly clear on the matter, but it's not like it's the first time I've ignored something from the book.

[nezumi]

I don't know what cbt.com is, but I really like kitties.

(I voted for the last option)

[SpeedFreak]

Wasn't attempting to scream at you Moon Hawk. Just saw some no votes with no explanations and was wondering what thier reasons were. :)

TJN:

Yeah, the canon rules say no to this, but the reason why I'm doing this poll is because I feel that this rule is to unfair to non-riggers, and want to know what everyone else thinks.


To all responders:

Thanks for talking to me! :D

[SpeedFreak]

[Adarael]

Rigger advantages under the old system:
-Massive speed increase
-The associated 'multiple actions per turn' that went with that (so they could drive & fire multiple times)
-Target # for manouver/crash tests reduced by twice their VCR rating
-Massive control pool
-Total integration with vehicular systems ("Of course I can make a phone call while shooting the rear turret and cooking bacon! All the systems are rigged!")

Non-Rigger advantages under the old system:
-Easier to bail out right before that AVM smacks your car.
Um...

Um......

Rigger advantages under the new system:
-Massive speed increase
-Associated multiple actions per turn
-Target # for manouver/crash tests reduced by VCR rating
-Massive control pool
-Total integration with vehicular systems.

Non-rigger advantages under the new system:
-Massive speed increase
-Associated multiple actions per turn

All this new system means is that a rigger won't be able to *totally* yawn at every non-rigger piloting a vehicle, ever. It means that once in a while, a mundane guy MAY be able to surprise or outmanouver a rigger with some clever thinking.

[Eyeless Blond]

This is kinda why I wanted to add in a Control Pool for non-riggers as well. Riggers will still have a larger pool, as well as the integration, reduced TNs, and drone networks as advantages, but this way a "vehicle-Zen" based adept won't be completely useless.

[ShadowGhost]

I don't agree to giving a control pool to a non rigger, but it seems silly that you can do tons of things in melee combat, but next to nothing when driving.

Of course, trying to drive and fire a gun at the same time should have rediculous TNs for a non-rigger, but I see no reason why your initiative suddenly becomes next to nil just because you're behind a wheel instead of behind a door, wall etc.

Of course, a non rigger has one advantage when driving a vehicle. The vehicle can take serious or deadly damage and you won't suffer dumpshock :grinbig:

[Eyeless Blond]

Yes, but you are going to have a real problem with the subsequent crash test, and will probably have to resist something in the same neighborhood as a result.

I agree that a non-rigger probably shouldn't get as large a control pool as a rigger does, but they should be able to dodge hits a *little*. Maybe Reaction/2? That's a pretty pathetic 1-2 dice for most normal people, and only like 4-5 for most well-wired street sams, but it should help a little.

[Kanada Ten]

Reaction/Handling?

[Moon-Hawk]

Speedfreak: We're cool. I just wanted to make it clear what I was saying and what I wasn't not saying. :-? Or something.

Anyway, I think I've been won over on the speed question. Full speed for all. Yay!

About this control pool thing, I dunno. Maybe a teeny-tiny one. Very tiny. A 'vehicle adept' could get mad dice on maneuver tests and such with improved ability. But I'm very wary of giving anyone anything like a control pool.
Kaneda Ten's idea of Reaction / Handling is interesting. That makes sure no one can get more than half what a rigger does, but that could still leave someone with a lot of dice. It's not hard to modify a vehicle to get it's Handling down to 2. Combine that with a street sam's reaction and you've got a pretty respectable pool, and I think that's too much.

This is a good thread.

[Botch]

K-10s got it IMO

[Sargasso]

Enhanced reflexes are incompatible with driving a vehicle for a smiple reason, the controls of a car don't react that quickly. When a Character rigs, they interface directly with the car at the middle brain. It cuts down on all the thoughts and steering wheel motion, etc. Riggers interface with cars in a way a wired samurai cannot match.

[SpeedFreak]

[iPad]

Alot of driving is an enevitability, that sensors and instantanious control removes.

Give riggers something or they are poo.

[Eyeless Blond]

[iPad]

Across an adventure a rigger gets very little chance to shine, I like the rules as they are.

Initiative boosting 'ware affects the body as a whole and the effects in the game reflect the faster path ways for (not game) reactions. Striking, pulling triggers, ducking, diving, rolling etc. are simple actions, controling a car isnt, its an artificial environment, where your not immersed in what is happening and rely on mirrors, speedometers, pedles gears, steering wheel etc. or are sat in a car waiting for the driver to swing it round so they can open fire on the car behind them.

[Kremlin KOA]

[Eyeless Blond]