Elemental Effects, What mundane items cause them Options

[Botch]

In earlier threads it is stated that mundane can effect spirits by causing elemental effect damage.

What causes elemental effect damage and what exactly is it?

I know of flamethrower, some people have mentioned taser and laser, but until I fully understand it I don't know whether to except them.

[Lindt]

If I was to spray a sprit down with liquid Nitrogen, that would be elemental damage. Its anything that isnt effectifly balistic in nature (that includes fists, clubs ect). Lasers, flames, electricty, extreame hot or cold.

[Kagetenshi]

Blowtorches.

~J

[Dashifen]

splash grenades or capsul (sp?) rounds loaded with the correct substance might (i.e. spalsh grenades loaded with distilled water against flame based thingies) also I've seen people get creative with the Wujen elements of Wood and Metal as well (course I make them use unrefined ore to count as metal, otherwise that nice katana counts as Metal).

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Lindt]

Guess I should start carrying some granite sling stones eh? See this is where that line gets fuzzy. Can I throw a rock (lets say there are stones around and I pick up a rock and throw it... its an earth element, but does it count :| )?

[Apathy]

There's a huge nuber of discussions in the forums about what should be considered elemental damage and what shouldn't. There's lots of disagreement between individual posters, but here's how I rule it:

Water Cannon/Fire Hose: Yes
Flamethrower/Blowtorch: Yes
Acid: Usually no (most acids are heavily processed/not natural enough)
Metal: Usually no (I'll only count it if they somehow used unrefined ore, and if they did I'd adjust the power of the slug/shrapnel downward)
Electrical/StunBaton/Taser/etc: Yes
Blast: I treat concussive waves from large explosions as elemental blast damage.
Capsule Rounds filled with whatever (water, etc.): No
Poison: No
Radiation: Not sure/Maybe?
Light: I treat lasers and elemental light damage

[Kagetenshi]

Radiation creates background count, so at the very least it's indirectly damaging it.

~J

[Lindt]

So I need to carry a supersoaker for my next sprit battle.... entertaining.

[Botch]

So what element are in use then?

Trad. elements would be Fire, Earth, Water, Air, Wood, and Metal. Were does light and electricity come from? Electricity is just too new as an element.

[Lindt]

Not really, lightning isnt exactly new. Night is light.

[Botch]

Oh, and which traditional belief system listed electricity or lightning then? Can you summon electricity or light elementals?

[Garland]

Not as elements, exactly, but plenty of belief systems reserved a special place for lightning and thunder. Zeus, Thor, thunderbirds, etc. And there are storm spirits.

As for light, it's a potent force: what do things that go bump (such as vampires) in the night fear? Light. From a Christian standpoint, what signalled the start of creation? Light. There aren't any associated spirits, for this one, though, that's true.

What I find a little less defensible is the elemental effect Blast. Huh?

[Botch]

[Garland]

Gods or not, lightning is/was was a recognized, feared, and much storied natural force. And a lot more common than dangerous manifestations of Earth, for instance.

A leafblower wouldn't cause damage to an earth elemental (well, there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that supports that it would). Sunlight does cause damage to vampires. They're scared of it for a reason.

[Kagetenshi]

[Botch]

Yes, because they are specifically allergic to it. What about everything else that sunbathes or just prefers not bumbing into things. Dogs, bugs, spiders, et al, don't have an elemental effect but people are scared of them and there are more of us than there are vampires.

My point about lightning is linked to the leafblower. A hurricane is dangerous and damaging, so is lightning. A leafblower isn't, so why would the reletively low power level of a taser be of any use.

Before you say it, yes tasers hurt humans, but so do bullets and they don't count against s/e

[Botch]

Sorry, back to the leafblower, what force level (intelligence/stupidity) would an earth elemental have to be to fall for the follow.

"Leave foul creature, before I destroy you! I hold the mighty power of Air, what you feel is the but the forerunner of your doom!"

[Garland]

I'm not suggesting Earth shouldn't be an elemental effect. It's got a long established tradition as one (especially in the context of rpgs).

What I am saying is that there's just a much tradition and reason for the inclusion of Lightning and Light as elemental effects.

Blast has always seemed a little strange for me, though. Kagetenshi points out "air," and I assume he means that's where tha damage is in "Blast." This is pretty damaging to everyone's argument here.

It suggests that Blast is some subset of Air/Wind, and Lightning might be as well, as Botch suggested storm spirits were. Would this mean that Light is some subset of Fire? Hmmm... Not separate categories as I like, but still elemental effects.

Well, at any rate, we know what the books have to say on the matter, regardless of anyone's personal preference.

[Kagetenshi]

In the Jewish tradition, electricity is a subset of fire.

Metal is unquestionably an element, as indicated by the existence of Artificer.

~J

[Garland]

No kidding? That's pretty cool. Either way would really make sense, depending on how a person wanted to look at it.

Um, according to the Horrors book, didn't Artificer come about as a monstrous earth elemental being subverted/possessed by a Horror?

[Kagetenshi]

Nope; monstrous metal elemental being subverted.

The metaplane of metal is, however, accessed through the metaplane of earth, IIRC.

~J

[Botch]

My understanding of traditional "elements" is that they are "purest" or essence of the thing. So wouldn't the arguement about not using swords fall apart if you include metal as an elemental category or would it only include gold as a suitable metal.

The alchemists quest to change base metals into gold had nothing to do with wealth, but the pursuit of "perfection". Whatever you do to gold it is always gold (well, upto 60 years ago, anyway) melt it, hit it, leave it alone for ages, put it in water, it always returned to be being gold. The best alchemists in the dark ages were mostly priests as god is Perfection and if you could change something into gold, the closer you would be to understanding Perfection. Thus closer to god.

[Kagetenshi]

How long has Aqua Regia been around? From the name, I'd guess at least World War I-era.

~J

[Botch]

Ok, 60 is a bit conservative, but not by much.

I was just checking out the explosive threads and K-10 mentioned a type of frag grenade. Explosive surrounded by gravel. Would this be an elemental effect?