Need some Statistics help, to create a new character attribute 
Need some Statistics help, to create a new character attribute 
Sep 17 2004, 07:46 PM
Post
#1


Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 12September 04 Member No.: 6,654 
No, this is not what you're thinking it is.
I'd like to create a new way of rating a character's ability to soak up damage; we'll call this a character's "tank rating" for now. Eventually "tank rating" will be expressed giantspreadsheet format, with Body on one axis and Ballistic Armor on the other. Each entry would be one of two things: 1) %chance for the character with X Ballistic armor and Y Body to fully stage down the damage from a heavy pistol shot with an average skill (3 to 4). 2) %chance for a character with Ballistic armor and Body of ratings X and Y respectively to stage down Z damage, where Z is something like 7D. I have some basic idea of what mathematics needs to be done, but lack the knowledge/experience to implement any of it. So, here goes. For option 1, I imagine the math to break down something like this. Calculate rate of failure against a certain TN (in this case the power of the attack modified by applicable armor) and multiply the result by the character's Body to get average number of failures per roll. Body  (result) should get you average number of successes per roll. Then, <insert crazy mathematics to convert number of successes into %chance to completely stage down damage> and then you'll have a way to express how often you can shrug off getting a cap busted in your meaty self. Option 2 seems like it would be quite a bit harder and, to be perfectly honest, I have no idea what would go into this kind of math. The ideal end result would be some formula or expression in terms of actual character attributes multiplied by another expression to represent the power/damage level of the original attack. This way doesn't seem all that feasible. If someone can figure it out, though, that would be awesome. If you've read this far, I'm sure you're starting to wonder, "What is the point of all this?" Well, my friends...game mechanicswise, there is absolutely no real applicability. It will mostly be used as an excuse to brag about your character. I'll also probably assign humorous, qualitative labels to the diffferent ranges of percentiles for some comedic value. Anyway, that's what I want to happen. Thanks in advance to any who attempt this. 


Sep 17 2004, 08:20 PM
Post
#2


Target Group: Members Posts: 73 Joined: 27August 04 Member No.: 6,604 
Sounds like you'll actually require three inputs to the data. EDIT  Which is just restating your figures.
1: Ballistic and Impact ratings 2: Body dice 3: The Power of said attacks and Damage. You would need a graph with basic manual inputs that automatically deduce the values. I really can't see a Graph taking into account all three variables and providing an accurate number without your own personal effort to calculate after the fact. Not a full thought: You could manually calculate the TN that the body dice would have to succeed by. And if someone could simply provide the percentage math that shows how often a d6 can get to a specific number, (that I've seen used so many times on here by others), you could use those figures to come out with a manual result. EDIT  And you know... I've added nothing to your question in my answer. *Shakes head and walks away ashamed.* 


Sep 17 2004, 08:28 PM
Post
#3


Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,954 Joined: 30December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 
Your expected successes against a given TN (probably most common attack Powermost common relevant armor value) would probably work just as well.
For instance, against a TN of 5 (Heavy Pistol4 Impact) a Body 12 Troll has a Tank of 4 while a Body 6 Human only has a Tank of 2 and a poor Body 3 average has a Tank of 1. ~J 


Sep 17 2004, 08:41 PM
Post
#4


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 
Alright, so we have two measures of success, percent chance of completely staging down a 9M attack, and a 7D attack. Might I recommend a few things on that, firstly, up the average skill of the attacker to 6, since that's generally what you're going to be facing off against. Secondly, I'd make the second attack significantly more powerful, like 12D or something, and the first attack weaker, like 6L. This will give you one number which is good for average characters, and one which is good for your uber characters. Assuming your attacker gets 2 successes, this means for the first test, you need to get 4 (or 6) successes against 6 (or 9)  armor, then 10 successes against 12 (or 7)  armor.
You also need to decide what you're doing with combat pool. Assumedly, we're not giving the attacker that benefit, but you're going to have to decide whether your defender can use it or not. A lot of characters are designed with huge combat pools in mind. However, no dodge would be allowed. Given those parameters... Option 1  This sounds like you're just getting those d6 probability charts. Some characters will get 0% on the first test (if they have less than 4 Body dice and no CP), and almost all will get 0% on the second one (since 10 dice is very unusual). But there are your two numbers, just like you wanted. Option 2  I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. If you just want a hard number to boast about, there's no reason for you to use so much math anyway. Just make it quick and easy and get back to munching. 


Sep 17 2004, 08:49 PM
Post
#5


Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 16August 03 Member No.: 5,501 
i am willing to do this,
what damage codes do you want done? whats the body? whats the skill of the shooter? im thinking of just making several tables, one for each damage level; once i reread the rules over how to resist damage :) 


Sep 17 2004, 08:50 PM
Post
#6


Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 
Much easier to compute than the above spreadsheet is a "Tank" rating as follows:
LP 3 means I can, on average, soak a LP shot with 3 successes. HP 5 means I can, on average, soak a HP shot with 5 successes. ARBF 2 means I can, on average, soak an Assault Rifle doing a burst that has 2 successes. To compute this, determine how many successes, on average you, the defender, will roll against that damage rating. Then compute the highest number of successes an attacker can have on that shot for you to still not take anything. That gives you your Tank rating. You need to decide, when computing Tank rating, how many Combat Pool dice to allow in the calculation for the defender. My suggestion: allow onethird of combat pool dice, round to the closest integer. This can all be calculated anywhere, by anyone, without a spreadsheet or formulas. /Edit: using this formula... My primary character has "ARBF 0", or "HP 3". My latest character, "Mr. A", is "HP 0" or "LP 2" 


Sep 17 2004, 09:25 PM
Post
#7


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 
The problem with that is you end up with a bunch of acronyms and different variables you shouldn't have to worry about. I think what Bane was going for was a single (or perhaps two) numbers which could be quite abstract, but didn't require any other knowledge to understand (that doesn't mean you don't need other knowledge to GET the number). So you could have two totally different characters and say 'this one is a 10 and that one is an 87'. You don't know how an 87 is calculated, or whatever else, but you do know it's better than a 10, perhaps about 9 times better.
For some reason I imagine going to a bar and rating women all of a sudden... 


Sep 17 2004, 10:34 PM
Post
#8


Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 12September 04 Member No.: 6,654 
I think a clarification is in order, mostly in respones to nezumi's first post.
Options 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. Option 1 would yield tank ratings against a set damage, say, that of a Heavy Pistol. Option 2 would yield tank ratings against a variable damage, so you could calculate a tank rating against a Tiffany or against a Panther Assault Cannon. Also, I think I will just leave combat pool out of this to simplify things. When I think of a tank, I think of someone just standing there and taking it  none of this wimpy dodging stuff. However, perhaps using a higher average skill rating or 5 or 6 would be more accurate. OurTeam: That's a good idea, and is definitely simpler than what I was going for. But I find that most people are just way, way too lazy to do even those simple calculations. nezumi's interpretation is more what I had in mind. xizor: If you do feel up to doing this, use the skill of the shooter as 6. Damage is 9M. Body varies, as does Ballistic Armor, so you'd be better off finding a formula with Body and Armor as variables in the formula. Then a nonlazy person (read: me) can expand the formula and make a big table listing all the possible results. 



Sep 20 2004, 11:54 PM
Post
#9


Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 16August 03 Member No.: 5,501 
ok heres part of the formula
and please bear with me because math is my strong point not grammar or spelling or making my point clear... first what is the damage that you want to test your charachter against?(power + successes needed to stage completely.) second turn the Target Number (TN) into a Probability (Prob) TN= prob TNs from 2 to 6 = (tn1)/6 TNs from 7 to 12 = ((tn7)/6)x1/6 TNs from 13 to 18 = ((tn13)/6)x1/6x1/6 now write that number down somewhere as the base probability and include how many succeses you need. now here is where it gets a little complicated. i have tryed to simplify the program from my graphing calc so somebody can do the math without one. (and please ask questions if you don't get it.) after you do this big calculation you will have the percentage chance that your charachter can stage down the attack to nothing now comes the complicated explaining. the formula differs according to how many success you need to stage the damage completely.there are however some parts that stay the same. 1 (base prob)^dice will always be in the equation. to account for the success add this formula to the one above. Note that if you need 6 success to stage the damage you will need to add in this formula SIX times!(once for success no1, once for success no 2, once for success no3, etc...,once for success no 6) ((1base prob)^(number of success)x(base prob)^(dice(number of success))x (dice(number of success1)) now i will do an example for you all, after i did far more work that i thought i would :wobble: gets curious poster gets shot by a cretan that hates math :P with a heavy pistol. cretin gets one success (hes a lousy shot too.) and the poster is wearing 4 points of armor and has a body of 8 (yes he is a world class talent when it comes to getting shot :grinbig: ) . This results in a target number of 5 [94=5 TN] with 5 success needed to stage the damage completely. now turn the TN into a probability [(51)/6=4/6=66.7% then we start fitting it into the formulas i wrote out for you way up there^ 1 (base prob)^dice= 1(.667)^8+ all of the figuring for success {((1base prob)^(number of success)x(base prob)^(dice(number of success))x (dice(number of success1))+((1base prob)^(number of success)x(base prob)^(dice(number of success))x (dice(number of success1))+((1base prob)^(number of success)x(base prob)^(dice(number of success))x (dice(number of success1))+((1base prob)^(number of success)x(base prob)^(dice(number of success))x (dice(number of success1))+((1base prob)^(number of success)x(base prob)^(dice(number of success))x (dice(number of success1))=((1.667)^(1)x(.667)^(8(1))x(8(11)))+((1.667)^(2)x(.667)^(8(2))x(8(21)))+((1.667)^(3)x(.667)^(8(3))x(8(31)))+((1.667)^(4)x(.667)^(8(4))x(8(41)))+((1.667)^(5)x(.667)^(8(5))x(8(51)))} so all that gets us to 1{(.667)^8+((1.667)^(1)x(.667)^(8(1))x(8(11)))+((1.667)^(2)x(.667)^(8(2))x(8(21)))+((1.667)^(3)x(.667)^(8(3))x(8(31)))+((1.667)^(4)x(.667)^(8(4))x(8(41)))+((1.667)^(5)x(.667)^(8(5))x(8(51)))} and now i get to cheat and use my calculator... 1{.039+.156+.068+.029+.012+.004}=1{.309} and all that work =69.1% chance that the unfortunate poster will be able to escape the damage(9M) unscathed yay my longest post :wobble: and if you understand that whole thing you are a genius because i think i messed up the example :oops:, i will continue to check it though This post has been edited by xizor: Sep 21 2004, 12:51 AM 


LoFi Version  Time is now: 10th June 2023  07:49 AM 
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.