 Computers and Memory/storage question |
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 Sep 21 2004, 03:53 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 167 Joined: 11-August 04 Member No.: 6,556  |
Hi. I am playing a hermetic mage and want to have his Sorcery library level 6 on a computer. The SR source book 167 states that a level6 library would take 36,000 Mp to store (rating * rating * 1,000 Mp).
If I am getting a desktop computer to hold this information then what rating of a computer do I need. How do you calculate storage space on for a computer that is not a deck?? I starting doing for math on this and the numbers started getting above 500,000 nuyen for 36,000 Mp memory cost. Is this right?? I hope not because I have two other libraries I need to store on a computer as well(total of three libraries) at level 6 rating. That would mean a 1+ million computer system. Thanks for the help. |
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Sep 21 2004, 04:00 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
[Edit]Teaches me to RTFM.[/Edit]
This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Sep 21 2004, 07:12 PM |
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Sep 21 2004, 07:08 PM
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#3
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Size is (rating *rating * 100MP). Cost is (rating * rating * 1000 :nuyen: ) Whole different ballgame there. Plus, the library comes on chip or in a book, your choice so the basic cost includes a format. Keeping it on your computer costs 20 :nuyen: an MP.
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Sep 21 2004, 07:12 PM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Good points there. Maybe I should read the Magic Section through again. |
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Sep 21 2004, 08:28 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 167 Joined: 11-August 04 Member No.: 6,556 |
So, assuming I want the library in chip form a rating level 6 library would have a file size of 3600 Mp (6*6*100 Mp) and cost 72000 nuyen in memory(20*3600 Mp).
Is this correct?? This seems high to me. |
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Sep 21 2004, 10:02 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
Unless you just want to slot the chip that it comes on; then you can use it in any computer with a chip reader (which should be pretty much all of them). |
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Sep 21 2004, 10:06 PM
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#7
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
3600 MP requires a computer with 3600 MP only if you do not want to use the chips. Otherwise, any computer will do. Yes, the cost of computers is insane in SR. You can in theory have it all on one* chip and, assuming that is a copy of the library, the chip would cost 1,800 nuyen. *You may need four chips to hold all the data if the chips are capped at 1000MP (cannot remember), in which case get a computer with four slots. Personally I think they should errata the computer cost to 2 nuyen per MP since they divided by 10 with the chips.
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Sep 21 2004, 10:15 PM
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#8
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I hadn't realized how insane the computer costs were until I was helping my girlfriend make a rigger and realized that the lowest-cost deck was a more economical way to store recorded footage than a pocket computer of equal storage.
I'm still inwardly praying that I screwed up in those calculations. ~J |
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Sep 21 2004, 10:21 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I don't think you can stick an entire library on one OMC, but SR3 doesn't explicitly give th size limit of an OMC. You could just store the Library using Offline-Storage (50+5 per MP) and just access the data using a Personal Computer. Again, no specific rules about needing to hold the whole library in memory, so I don't think you'd need a ton of 20 x MP memory, just enough to rune a program to browse it (these take minimal impact per the personal computer info on SR3:307). Thinking about this in real-life terms, RAM cost more per MB than Harddrive space. You don't need 5GB of RAM to run an installed 5GB game, just enough RAM to run the software that will access the game. I think the same applies here. So I'd say 50 + (3600 x 5) = 19050 for the offline-storage and then another 2000 for a 100 Mp Personal Computer (100 x 20 for cost) to access it. |
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Sep 21 2004, 10:22 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
Of course, ten-fifteen years ago, all these prices were perfectlhy reasonable. I do remember the times when buying 2 MB of memory cost me $400, and a 200MB hard drive was almost $1,000 and that was only 1994-ish. That is the era from whence come the computer prices in this game. The computer chip glut of the late 90's changed this, but the computer prices were never altered.
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Sep 21 2004, 10:27 PM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I still remember when someone three years younger than me tried to guess the size of my first hard drive. He guessed a gigabyte.
*Pats the 156 megabyte drive he filled with Civilization saved games* That's not counting the hard-driveless Mac Classic… ~J |
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Sep 21 2004, 10:28 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,641 |
I never understood why a library would take up so much memory? They're text files. Let's say they're images even. We're talking about storage memory sixty years more advaned. Storage for a few throusand books should be cheap, not expensive.
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Sep 21 2004, 10:38 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
Size of my first harddrive was 40MB, added to a Tandy 1000 so I could play Civ :) Sargasso, how large would a library full of image files be (imagine you are limited to .GIF's :) ?) I don't know what goes into a hermetic library, but I always figured there was not all that much text. And I suspect it includes things like its own operating system, encryption, etc. Again, this was all based on 10 to 15 year old computer technology and then thinking ahead (remember, as early as 20 years ago, Bill Gates and company did not believe any computer would ever need more than 650K of memory. That 650K limit was what made DOS such a bitch to run games on. So, thinking 60-80 years ahead is hard). |
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Sep 21 2004, 10:45 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Yeah this always did bug me, but who knows what the library looks like. I doubt it's all text if it's computerized. Probably lots of multimedia and stuff, but I doubt 3600MP worth, that's alot even by SR standards. The other part of an eletronic libary is that you are already paying for it (1000 x Rating) and now you have to pay to store it and view it? I suppose it's the cost of convenience, but that means you are paying for "something" so what is it? Disks? OMC chips? How many? Can I just read them with my computer already? Starts to get me thinking that the medium cost is already a factor and that you'd just need some device to access it. Anyone get the same vibe? |
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Sep 21 2004, 10:47 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,641 |
It's not hard to guess. a Hermetic's physical library takes up X cubic meters. What is the bulk of the value of that? Text, images, diagrams, maybe a small sculpture as a pneumonic device. That's what, maybe a million pages of data? I have 459 books in my bedroom, (I cleaned throroughly the other day, and I counted). They cover four seperate bookshelves, stacked two deep. They average 500 pages or so apeice. That's only 229,500 pages. Books average 200-300 words, especially paperbacks, which most of mine are. That's only 57,375,000 words. I'm supposed to belive that's a few dozen megapulses?
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Sep 21 2004, 10:48 PM
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#16
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I assume a rating 6 library is 6 thousand books, mostly images and symbols, several hundred code books and several hundred more decoding books, thousands of essays, a few thousand progressive starcharts and 6 newsletter subscriptions. Plus a few things I'll think of latter.
You can get away with 1800 nuyen for storage on the rating 6 library, not bad really. |
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Sep 21 2004, 10:50 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,641 |
Oh, the information within is valuable, but why is the storage medium so costly? Look at Cds, I can burn a CD with 700+ megabytes of data for pennies apeice.
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Sep 21 2004, 10:57 PM
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#18
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
This isn't really a new issue. I've made my suggestion in this thread, and others have made theirs in previous. If you'd like to make a topic and/or suggest an improvment, that'd be great.
Personally, I like dividing the memory costs by ten, and then it's really a non-issue to me. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Sep 21 2004, 11:03 PM |
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Sep 21 2004, 11:01 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,641 |
Well, why not makes the storage medium free? If you go to your local talismonger's shop, the choice between chip and hardcopy should be about as meaningful as the choice between paper or plastic at the grocery checkout lane. I'm sure the talismonger would rather not store hundreds of pounds of books. giving you a break for buying chips means they don't have to bother with wharehousing issues.
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Sep 21 2004, 11:06 PM
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#20
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Well, it is free. The cost of the library includes the storage of chip or book. The original poster just wanted it all on one computer, not chip or paperback. SR computer memory is generally considered overpriced. Also, I doubt the local talismonger has anything above rating 2 in store.
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Sep 21 2004, 11:08 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 122 Joined: 1-September 04 Member No.: 6,621 |
Ok, you have paperbacks. Novels, I am assuming, mostly. That wouldn't take much to store, although storing the covers as image files would take up almost as much room as the combined text would. Now, assume instead of paperback novels, you had 450 art books, full of full color plates of various paintings and sculptures. First, they are much larger. (usually coffee-table size or slightly smaller. That would take probably 100 times at much storage (more for really high res images) as your library of paperback novels. Here are the sizes: Rating 6 library: 3600 MP or six cubic meters of physical space, if it is not computerized. Six cubic meters is ~212 cubic feet. To address other questions, no, it can be assumed you purchase the storage media (chips) when you buy the library. What you do need is a computer (if you buy the chip) or some boxes and bookshelves if you buy the books (and I hope you got a decent lifestyle, if you bought the books, or as a GM, I might be evil and make them deteriorate). As far as the computer goes, you do not need to buy one with 3600MP of memory any more than you need to buy a computer with 2 Gigabytes of memory in order to play Morrowind today (although it might not hurt :) ). If you want to install the library on the computer, you will need 3600MP of offline storage however (a harddrive...this is not necessary...you can always just read directly from the chips). |
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Sep 21 2004, 11:21 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Yeah that's what I've gathered from re-reading SR3 and absorbing the posts...It already comes on a chip, disk, whatever, you just need something to read it with which is cheap. I suppose i need to RTFM more closely. :oops: |
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Sep 21 2004, 11:27 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,641 |
Yeah, ditto there. this is what I get for letting my players borrow my core book for months on end.
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Sep 21 2004, 11:34 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 167 Joined: 11-August 04 Member No.: 6,556 |
Thanks for the input everyone.
So, what computer equipment do I need then to view a hermetic library on computer chip format or where do I look in a sourcbook for pricing information for the equipment?? I had assumed I needed 3600 Mp memory on a computer in order to view/use the library by computer. I take it that this is not the case. The only place I place I saw for offline storage was in the Matrix Sourcebook for cyberdecks. Where should I look for this information?? Thanks again. |
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Sep 21 2004, 11:38 PM
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#25
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
SR3 page 304 has off-line storage; it can work with any computer. I think you need only 100MP computer to view the files, personally (talk with your GM). But I suggest a printer and maybe multiple displays.
[edit] McMakie's GM View DAT is sweet, BTW. |
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