Computers and Memory/storage question Options

[Edward]

Store it on offline media. If your computer breaks you can transfer it more easily and you can use cheaper memory. Computer memory is active memory you could be able to have inactive memory but I don’t know what it would cost in a computer (probably the same as in a deck or offline memory).

Also I would say the price of the library includes the media on witch it is stored. Or do you have to pay for the cubic meter of books per rating point.

As an aside why is the storage space/rating linier for books but exponential for computer. I can concave of the rating 500 library that is lager on chip than it is in books.

As to the cost of memory. There are 3 types in SR. active memory, storage memory and offline storage. (as taken from the decking rules). I don’t have matrix available at the moment to quote the prices.

The description of personal computers suggests that the only memory that come with is non volatile active memory they use for both functions. It should be trivial to install a dedicated module of offline storage to act as an additional bank of storage memory. Computer BR 3 and 50+5*MP nuyen.

Of cause it seems very strange that a data display unit and a computer (which I assumed could act as a data display unit as well as its other functions) have exactly the same price.

For the viewing system the min would be a 100MP computer. For having pertinent pages available while doing a ritual (say your formula for a familiar) you would want a couple of display screens or a printer. If you have a rating 6 library you probably have a lifestyle that comes with a cyber terminal that includes all this already.

Techno geek mages with high lifestyles could go as far as wall screens, voice recognition and computers hanging from the ceiling so as not to interfere with the ritual cercal.

If you put the photovoltaic paint on the floor (like sprawl survival guide has for picture windows) could you store your ritual circles on computer to be called on whenever you want them at a moments notice?

If you have a data jack and an image link you could even slot your howl library and access it as a data soft.

Edward

[GrinderTheTroll]

[hobgoblin]

as you may notice in the post, i didnt have it fully tougth out before i started typeing so i think im contradicting the game cartridge image by the time i hit the end of the post. problem is that its how i write most my posts...

[Kanada Ten]

[Jason Farlander]

Well the implication in your statements that I got was that the arguments for some reason did not apply to shamans - that hermetics, and primarily hermetics, were all very concerned with every minute loss of power.

Remember, a huge proportion of hermetics - those who do not persue lifestyles in the shadows, the military, or corp security - probably wont have terribly many spells higher than force 2 (since they would require permits to learn) or, for that matter, *any* spells higher than force 4 or 5 - its just not necessary. Furthermore, these people also wont generally intelligence and willpower attributes of 6 each - theyre just otherwise normal people who can weild magic.

So, what loss of power does a single magic point actually constitute for such a person? Absolutely none whatsoever. For them, the difference in magical ability before and after datajack implanting is entirely theoretical.

You seem to see magic loss as something that would be felt at all levels of magic use - that is is actually harder for someone with magic 5 to cast a force 1 entertainment spell than someone with magic 6, just not sufficiently harder to be represented in mechanical terms. With that view I can see why you find the very idea of getting a datajack abhorrent to most mages... but it is not a view that I share, nor is it one I for which I see any support in the descriptive text concerning magic loss.

[Kanada Ten]

[Jason Farlander]

I sincerely doubt that focus addiction would be a major concern for a hermetic researcher or that the difference between a 20 meter radius detection spell and a 24 meter radius detection spell would be considered significant for most people. Anything beyond the most basic applications of masking are unlikely to matter to your average mage. The difference in warding ability betwen magic ratings 5 and 6 comes down to the magic 5 mage can ward a 5*5*10 meter room, while the magic 6 mage can ward a 5*6*10 meter room. Oh no! What a huge difference!

Additionally, I never said that the average mage wouldnt have any spells over force 2 - I said they wouldnt have terribly many. I agree that many job-related spells would be force 4 or 5 depending on what the job requires. However, non-combat applications of sorcery do not ever really demand a force higher than 5, except in the very specific case of medical facilities - where force 6, or even force 5, is far from weak (bringing someone from the brink of death to moderate injury in seconds without surgery isn't exactly trivial, and i doubt many trauma-room mages have a high enough sorcery to reliably generate more than 5 successes on the casting test anyway). But even assuming that no trauma-room mage would even consider getting a datajack, such people arent exactly a majority.

Yes, there are countless ways in which a drop from magic rating 6 to magic rating 5 has an effect on the things a mage can do, but only in specific and relatively rare cases would any of those differences in power actually be "important".

I will agree that, relatively speaking, fewer mages will take datajacks than will mundanes, but I wouldnt be surprised to see that, say 1/4-1/3 of all mages would possess one. This is attributable simply to the fact that there does exist an extra tradeoff, which would by itself convince some people to avoid getting one. All of you arguments about datajacks being insigificantly better than trode nets for most people should, however, apply to all of the mundies out there - and yet fully half of them possess one.

In the greater scheme of things, most people are willing to sacrifice quite a bit for convenience. You would think that most people would be pretty concerned with, oh I dont know, being healthy - but that doesnt stop them from choosing to eat fast food. Datajack-enabled devices are so ubiquitous in SR that its simply far more convenient to get one installed than to have to carry a trode-rig around with you and worry about aligning it properly every time you want to use such a device.

...But I'm done ranting now. I am sorry if I seemed overly antagonistic... such wasnt really my intent - I just like lengthy explanations. Anyway, by all means, proceed with the regularly scheduled topic.

[Kanada Ten]

[TheScamp]

Enough courtesy! I want some intestines on the floor this instant!

[Kagetenshi]

You… you net adanak!

~J

[Edward]

If I was a SR magical I would not consider a data jack worth the loss of magic, come however would. As a shadow runner I would however consider a smart gun to be worth the loss and then the image link, 30MP headwear and data jack are free.

Magical medics want all the magic rating they can get for the big healing spells. Although they wouldn’t be used often as in most cases a force 2 healing followed up by extended hospital care would suffice.

Edward

[GrinderTheTroll]

Can't you Geas the Magic point loss for cyberware? If so, then I'd imagine some mages would go that route for the extra benefit of Cyber/Bioware.

[hobgoblin]

yes you can geas it but its like haveing a sprinter use a walking stick...

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Kanada Ten]

Right, but you have to really want a datajack and all that. Why? What's the point of a datajack that's worth having a restriction on your source of power?

[Botch]

I was reading two sourcebooks last night. Lone Star and Shadowbeat. Two things struck me, in Lone Star it states at the start that the data provided by the reporter/cop duo is "a few megabytes" and in Shadowbeat it also clearly states that simsense can be recorded on CD.

The bit about simsense on is not fluff, so...what would be the minimum effective length of a simsense recording at baseline standard?

[hobgoblin]

look for info in SR3, under the simrig implant. the numbers are 1mp pr sec baseline and 3mp pr sec full-x recording. and i belive this is for one view only so if your going for a polyview recordeing, increase it by the number of recordings.

[Edward]

[hobgoblin]

when the system becomes fully optical :)

but yes, the file sizes for recording of video, audio, simsense and whatsnot fluxuate wildly. i think most of the numbers are tuned for game balance over consistency...

[Botch]

So if you assume the shortest useful length of simsense would be a taster clip of baseline at 10 seconds, is the following true?

10 seconds of baseline = 1MP/sec = 10MP
Capacity of CD = 700MB

Therefore, 1MP = 70MB? :eek:

If that's true, then I think my deckers gonna find a DVD recorder. :smokin:

[hobgoblin]

sorry i lost the track when you made the jump from megapulse to megabyte...

[Kagetenshi]

[Edward]

Wile you did use the best numbers available it is still highly inaccurate.

1MP/sec is for a wet record before post production cleaning up and high grade compression

secondly I assumed that the capacity of CDs had increased greatly by 2050 and more so by 2060. The game designers simply failed to predict that we would change the name to DVD and probably go threw 5-10 other names between now and then. It wouldn’t surprise me to find terabyte storage in a package that looks like a CD.

Edward

[Jason Farlander]

[Botch]

Ok,

I looking through the Shadowbeat sourcebook when I came to the section on recording simsense. I am not at my flat and cannot give the actual page references. In the descriptions for recordable media that can be used to record baseline simsense it clearly states that simsense can be recorded onto CD.

A few points.

CDs have an industry standard contruction, they will not under any circumstances magically become bigger in 206x. A compact shiny diskette may exist, it just wouldn't be called a CD. A DVD is inherently a big CD, it isn't called CD2, CD4.7, or somesuch it is a DVD. FYI - Phillips have developed a new chemical optical disc that has a 4.7GB storage capacity and is the size of the end of a thumb, it isn't called CD2 or DVD2 either. As for as I am aware Shadowbeat contains the only references to CDs, in passing yes, but in the canon text, not fluff. As an historical note, commercial CDs have NEVER cost more to produce than a vinyl record.

Compression - no matter how good the compression system is, there is a physical limitation on how much data can be stored within an object. For a standard CD this is approximately 5,600,000,000 bits. That is the physical limit and it is a small quantity, although you can argue that we only use one side of a CD that would only double capacity and leads to the question of where does the label go? We are all conversant with canon interpretation in regards explicit/implicit statements. There is no mention of pre-recording, editing and high compression needed to specifically utilise CD as a simsense storage medium and CD is included in the same list as OMCs, therefore Edward's interpretation is "house". So, when the rules state 1MP/sec for a baseline simsense recording it is 1MP/sec regardless of storage medium.

Duration - Why did I pick 10 seconds? Firstly, no MP capacity for a CD is stated, only its ability to be effectively used as a storage medium. Secondly, considering the relative cost of OMCs in 206x a CD must have a smaller capacity, but just how much smaller? The keywords are effective usage, what in your opinion would be the shortest useful duration of a baseline simsense recording? Looking at the internet today, the shortest effective video clips are about 8-45 seconds in duration. To try and keep the MP-MB ratio at its most generous and the maths simple I made the assumption that the shortest useful duration of a baseline simsense recording would be 10 seconds.

So...

The standard capacity of CDs = 700MB
The memory requirements of baseline simsense = 1MP/sec
The shortest useful length of a simsense clip = 10 secs

Therefore...

700MB/10 seconds = 70MB/sec = 1MP/sec