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> Ares' Rivals, Who else makes SOTA weapons?
Dashifen
post Sep 23 2004, 07:42 PM
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Just in case: If you play the Saturday afternoon game with me at UIUC, don't read the spoiler. Why? Because it would spoil your fun!!!

Looking for a quick answer to a question that popped into my head: who could be considered Ares Macrotech's leading competator in the field of SOTA weapons?

[ Spoiler ]
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 23 2004, 07:50 PM
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Heckler & Koch, part of the big happy Saeder-Krupp family!

(No, I'm not biased!)
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Nath
post Sep 23 2004, 07:56 PM
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I'm not perfectly neutral on this, but I'd say Esprit Industries (a French mega described in SoE, working with S-K and Monobe) or Aztechnology. Renraku could be interested too.
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Dashifen
post Sep 23 2004, 08:00 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
I'm not perfectly neutral on this, but I'd say Esprit Industries (a French mega described in SoE, working with S-K and Monobe) or Aztechnology. Renraku could be interested too.

whee! A reason to go by SoE after work.
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Backgammon
post Sep 23 2004, 08:04 PM
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Nath: marketing p1mp at work ;)

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FlakJacket
post Sep 23 2004, 09:00 PM
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I thought Renraku was more into the heavy weapons field, and that thyey'd sold off most of that a while back? IWS might be another one worth considering.
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Nath
post Sep 23 2004, 09:06 PM
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Renraku did sell most of its assets in the European defense industry a while ago, but owns two firearms manufacturers in Asia, Shin Chou Kyogo in Japan and Ultimax in Singapore. Now I think about it there is no real basis for my impression that those two ones were focusing on hi-tech small weapons, smartlinks, automated systems and the like.

IWS might not be a good pick considering that Ares Arms own 30% of its capital.
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cth
post Sep 23 2004, 09:11 PM
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Flipping through Corporate Download, Ares Arms' (military technology rating 11) leading competator would seem to be one of the following:
  • Aztechnology (military technology rating 8 ) - no specific divisions/subsidiaries mentioned.
  • Renraku (military technology rating 7) - Renraku Asia subsidiaries includes two small arms manufactururers: Ultimax and Shin Chou Kyogo.
  • Saeder-Krupp (military technology rating 7) - no specific divisions/subsidiaries mentioned.
  • Shiawase (military technology rating 7) - Shiawase Armaments, Inc. which develops, produces and distributes everything from light pistols to warships (the Shiawase Aohana-class frigate from Rigger 3).

Other competitors of interests could be:
  • The Cross Applied Technologies-owned Fleche Armaments.
  • The Novatech-owned small arms manufacturer Cavalier Arms Limited (ask Patrick Goodman for further details ;))

\cth
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Backgammon
post Sep 23 2004, 09:18 PM
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Renraku owns Keruba (i think that's how it's spelled), which is a weapon corporation. In fact, Renraku was formed from the merger of Keruba and some other stuff. So Renraku is big into weapons.
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Nath
post Sep 23 2004, 09:37 PM
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Esprit Industries is rated 9 in Military Technology according to web bonus, putting it on the forefront. But as I said, I'm not perfectly neutral: I am the one who wrote those numbers down and Esprit is my pet-corp.

QUOTE (cth)
Aztechnology (military technology rating 8 ) - no specific divisions/subsidiaries mentioned.

In the Canon Companion and Rigger 3, Aztechnology is selling missile launchers and railgun under its own name.

QUOTE (cth)
Saeder-Krupp (military technology rating 7) - no specific divisions/subsidiaries mentioned.

Rigger 3 and SoE say Saeder-Krupp subsidiaries include GIAT Industries, the RL French company (currently state-owned) who produces FAMAS assault riffles and Leclerc main battle tanks.

QUOTE (Backgammon)
Renraku owns Keruba (i think that's how it's spelled), which is a weapon corporation. In fact, Renraku was formed from the merger of Keruba and some other stuff. So Renraku is big into weapons.

Actually, Renraku was an empty shell funded in 2029 by Inazo Aneki and its partners just to take over Keruba International. According to SoE on the basis of Blood in the Booardroom, Renraku sold almost all of Keruba original assets in the defense industry in the late 2030ies to get rid of the corruption that plagued them, only retaining Izom Armaments (probably a Hungarian company). With the asian firearms manufacturers and probably some other assets, it justifies a middle-of-the-pack rating in the defense industry. But Keruba also had some juicy computers hardware and software subsidiaries who became prevalent in the meantime after their memory storage system became the standard for the Matrix.

There's also the Japanese AA Monobe International who owns Herstal (Belgian firearms manufacturer IRL, French by 2063) whose most exotic product so far is the gyrojet pistol.
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post Sep 23 2004, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Heckler & Koch, part of the big happy Saeder-Krupp family!

(No, I'm not biased!)

Then why does Ares distribute them?
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Kanada Ten
post Sep 23 2004, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
Heckler & Koch, part of the big happy Saeder-Krupp family!

Then why does Ares distribute them?

Well, isn't is Weapon's World that distributes them? Which, while part of Ares, is know for having "all the wepaons in the world" or some other marketing ploy. In short, it's about money and long term profits over petty corporate rivalry. Boeing makes Ares planes, car dealerships sell competing vehicles. Preventing Saeder-Krupp distributers from gaining footholds in the Ares dominated retail market seems like a better long term strategy if we consdier that HK may not always be owned by SK or even totally owned by them.
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cykotek
post Sep 23 2004, 11:07 PM
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If this is a case of the weapon being an advanced model, prototype, or other such early-production model, I would think that nearly any corporation that designs or manufactures weapons of any sort would be interested. Reverse-engineering, and perhaps beating Ares to the open-market punch would be a major coup in the weapons PR world.

And if they couldn't beat Ares to the market, they can at least get a comparable model on the market fast. To my knowledge, no one else has marketed any form of laser weapon since the first MP laser in 2055, so any competition is almost guaranteed a decent market share.
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Adarael
post Sep 23 2004, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE
Heckler & Koch, part of the big happy Saeder-Krupp family!

(No, I'm not biased!)


It's not biased to recognize and respect the fact that H&K make some of the finest modern small arms on the planet. Well, maybe a little biased, if you count being biased towards quality.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 23 2004, 11:31 PM
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Which, of course, makes them perfect for interest in a completely non-firearm technology.

Not saying that they wouldn't necessarily be interested, but they're far from a sure thing. I could easily see them leaving the lasers to the other guys right now and concentrating on building a better slugthrower.

~J
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Young Freud
post Sep 24 2004, 03:41 AM
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QUOTE (Nath)
Esprit  Industries is rated 9 in Military Technology according to web bonus, putting it on the forefront. But as I said, I'm not perfectly neutral: I am the one who wrote those numbers down and Esprit is my pet-corp.

QUOTE (cth)
Aztechnology (military technology rating 8 ) - no specific divisions/subsidiaries mentioned.

In the Canon Companion and Rigger 3, Aztechnology is selling missile launchers and railgun under its own name.

QUOTE (cth)
Saeder-Krupp (military technology rating 7) - no specific divisions/subsidiaries mentioned.

Rigger 3 and SoE say Saeder-Krupp subsidiaries include GIAT Industries, the RL French company (currently state-owned) who produces FAMAS assault riffles and Leclerc main battle tanks.

QUOTE (Backgammon)
Renraku owns Keruba (i think that's how it's spelled), which is a weapon corporation. In fact, Renraku was formed from the merger of Keruba and some other stuff. So Renraku is big into weapons.

Actually, Renraku was an empty shell funded in 2029 by Inazo Aneki and its partners just to take over Keruba International. According to SoE on the basis of Blood in the Booardroom, Renraku sold almost all of Keruba original assets in the defense industry in the late 2030ies to get rid of the corruption that plagued them, only retaining Izom Armaments (probably a Hungarian company). With the asian firearms manufacturers and probably some other assets, it justifies a middle-of-the-pack rating in the defense industry. But Keruba also had some juicy computers hardware and software subsidiaries who became prevalent in the meantime after their memory storage system became the standard for the Matrix.

There's also the Japanese AA Monobe International who owns Herstal (Belgian firearms manufacturer IRL, French by 2063) whose most exotic product so far is the gyrojet pistol.

Monobe owns Fabrique Nationale? Did they buy them out from under GIAT? GIAT currently owns FNH.

Where's British Aerospace here? They show up in SOTA63 as the makers of the Agincourt Mortar Carrier. Did Saeder-Krupp buy them out or just buy Heckler & Koch from them, who is currently a subsidary of BAe?

Almost all the AAA have their hands in armaments. Another division not mentioned is Mitsuhama Militia-ware. I swear that Yamatetsu's got a weapons division, but I'm not sure what it's name is.

Renraku owns SCK and Chartered Industries of Singapore? (Ultimax is a gun line, not the company; reminds me of the recently corrected typo in CC with the Semopal vz88, which used to be called Samopal, until, I guess, someone informed them that Samopal is Czech for "submachinegun".)

IWS could still make a good company, even if it's own by Ares. There has always been a history of divisions competing against one another. Just recently, at the Austin Game Conference, a representative for Sony Consumer Electronicsm of America (i.e. makers of PS2), in a keynote speech with Microsoft, said that they will crush the competition in internet gaming industry, mentioning Sony Online Entertainment by name.
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msde
post Sep 24 2004, 03:55 AM
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The problem with SOE is that Europe is an afterthought in the SR world. The overriding mentality is that everything that S-K didn't absorb was bought up or merged into one of the big 7. Even North America only has one representative in the big 7 (Ares), and there really aren't that many AAs out there.

IMHO you have room for a couple previously unmentioned major corporations like Esprit (I dont have SOE, is it a rising star like CATco and Novatech, or a long-time AA like Transys Neuronet?), and everything else has skeletons in the closet tying them to big 7 money. Looking at non-Japanese Asia and ignoring Yamatetsu, there's probably only half a dozen or so major corporations out there, most of which are in the PPG.

It may or may not be canon, but I would GM rule that all but a handful of European corps not mentioned in SOE (plus a few that are) are really AAA subsidiaries with fancy paperwork and quiet buyouts (Most of which would be S-K).

PS - I know, but I still like to call them the big 7.

Oops, and to answer your question:

I'd dig out the SSC and read off company names. Major brand names on my quick USA-background skimming are Beretta, Browning, Ceska, Colt, Mossberg, Walther, H&K. Skimming FoF adds Ingram, Barret, Remington, and Franchi to the list. A few of these I seem to recall as Ares subsidiaries. Most of the rest are probably so vaguely mentioned in canon that ownership is never stated.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Sep 24 2004, 05:51 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Heckler & Koch, part of the big happy Saeder-Krupp family!

Then why does Ares distribute them?

Well, isn't is Weapon's World that distributes them? Which, while part of Ares, is know for having "all the wepaons in the world" or some other marketing ploy. In short, it's about money and long term profits over petty corporate rivalry. Boeing makes Ares planes, car dealerships sell competing vehicles. Preventing Saeder-Krupp distributers from gaining footholds in the Ares dominated retail market seems like a better long term strategy if we consdier that HK may not always be owned by SK or even totally owned by them.

Well, I only consider it insofar as SSC was an Ares Arms document written before the purchase of Weapons World from Monobe.
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Young Freud
post Sep 24 2004, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE (msde)
I'd dig out the SSC and read off company names.  Major brand names on my quick USA-background skimming are Beretta, Browning, Ceska, Colt, Mossberg, Walther, H&K.  Skimming FoF adds Ingram, Barret, Remington, and Franchi to the list.  A few of these I seem to recall as Ares subsidiaries.  Most of the rest are probably so vaguely mentioned in canon that ownership is never stated.

You forgot one, one I completely ignored until recently: Winter Systems of New York. They're mentioned as an low-level competitor against Knight Errant for NY (in SoA), but is first mentioned, twice, in the SSC, first as the makers of the Flash-Pak and then in then right in Shadowtalk on the Ares laser. There's a rumor that their working on their own portable continuous laser system, which Nightfire, Ares salesperson, shoots down.
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Crisp
post Sep 24 2004, 11:32 AM
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QUOTE

Esprit Industries is rated 9 in Military Technology according to web bonus, putting it on the forefront. But as I said, I'm not perfectly neutral I am the one who wrote those numbers down and Esprit is my pet-corp.


Esprit Industries is your pet corp and you put Herbert de Vaucanson in charge?!? LOL!!!
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Nath
post Sep 24 2004, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE (Crisp)
Esprit Industries is your pet corp and you put Herbert de Vaucanson in charge?!? LOL!!!

Actually, somebody put him in charge in some draft document, and I didn't mind keeping him. The reference to the "Donjon" French comics actually gave me, humor aside, a basis to imagine the kind of guy that could be heading Esprit a nice guy finding a job at the wrong place, forced to learn how to fight. And when he reached the top position, he inherited from his predecessors a powerful black ops network that make him intouchable (call that a metaphor). In the "Donjon" series, Vaucanson ends as an arch-evil character, and we have yet to figure out how it happened...

But I probably underestimated how much people who know the serie would only think the original character.
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Crisp
post Sep 24 2004, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
In the "Donjon" series, Vaucanson ends as an arch-evil character, and we have yet to figure out how it happened...

But I probably underestimated how much people who know the serie would only think the original character.

You're right I was thinking of the original Herbert from Coeur de Canard

I hadn't considered that it might be "Le Grand Khan"...
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Camouflage
post Sep 24 2004, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
QUOTE (cth)
Saeder-Krupp (military technology rating 7) - no specific divisions/subsidiaries mentioned.

Rigger 3 and SoE say Saeder-Krupp subsidiaries include GIAT Industries, the RL French company (currently state-owned) who produces FAMAS assault riffles and Leclerc main battle tanks.

SK also sells weapons and military vehicles under its own name.
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Nath
post Sep 24 2004, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (Young Freud)
Monobe owns Fabrique Nationale? Did they buy them out from under GIAT? GIAT currently owns FNH.

IRL, GIAT owned Herstal for a while during the 1990ies, and then sold it to the Regional government of Wallonia in Belgium. Considering Belgium and Wallonia history in SR, the control could have ended to nearly anybody on Earth.

QUOTE (Young Freud)
Where's British Aerospace here? They show up in SOTA63 as the makers of the Agincourt Mortar Carrier. Did Saeder-Krupp buy them out or just buy Heckler & Koch from them, who is currently a subsidary of BAe?

AS far as I know, SOTA:63 is the only book mentionning them. The BAC is supposed to be one of the company involved in the EFA Variants production, and several books mentions Hawker-Siddley (instead of Siddeley) as an Aztechnology subsidiary (making the merger who created BAe in 1977 one of the oldest event of contemporary history to be ignored by SR). The London SB seemed to imply IWS was gathering most of the British defense industry, so I guess the best solution would be to state BAE is a subsdiary of IWS.

Anyway, BAE sold Heckler & Koch in december 2002. Oh, and there's still no conclusive elements to assert that S-K owns Heckler & Koch by 2063. Even if nationality mattered (which it does not), Ruhrmetall (basically Rheinmetall renamed) would make as much sense as S-K.

QUOTE (Young Freud)
Almost all the AAA have their hands in armaments. Another division not mentioned is Mitsuhama Militia-ware.

Militia-Ware is mentionned in Cyberpirates page 85, where it's said the Philippines is their only big market, keeping the volume and quality of production quite low. Except tha drone design Mitsuhama makes by itself, they'd probably be producing mostly under license, when they won't act just as intermediaries.

QUOTE (msde)
The problem with SOE is that Europe is an afterthought in the SR world. The overriding mentality is that everything that S-K didn't absorb was bought up or merged into one of the big 7.

That's why the London SB (1991) added British Industrial, HKB, Transys Neuronet and Zeta-ImpChem, and the Germany SB (1994) Ruhrmetall, IFMU and the Frankfurter Bankverein (and later, in T:SH IIRC, Proteus)...

QUOTE (msde)
IMHO you have room for a couple previously unmentioned major corporations like Esprit (I dont have SOE, is it a rising star like CATco and Novatech, or a long-time AA like Transys Neuronet?), and everything else has skeletons in the closet tying them to big 7 money.

Esprit is supposed to be a long-timer (actually, it was first mentionned in Fields of Fire under the military armor entry), but has S-K, Monobe and a French corp owning 10-20% of the capital each (the actual number aren't stated).

At the end of SoE, I know of 19 AA megacorps in Europe. 4 were introduced in London, 4 in Germany, 1 in T:SH, 2 in Rigger 3, and 8 new to SoE (although 3 of them have passing mentions in older books). The continent could have get boring if the two first countries to get a books should have been the only ones allowed to host megacorps and Great Dragons.

QUOTE (msde)
Even North America only has one representative in the big 7 (Ares), and there really aren't that many AAs out there.

DocWagon, Fed-Boeing, Ford, Lockheed, Lone Star, Phoenix Biotechnologies, Universal Omnitech, UCAS Online, Gunderson until 2061, and Cross before 2060. Plus Hisato-Turner Broadcasting if the legal HQ is Atlanta, and maybe some more like Microdeck or United Oil for which it was never clearly stated if they should be rated A or AA.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 24 2004, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
Anyway, BAE sold Heckler & Koch in december 2002. Oh, and there's still no conclusive elements to assert that S-K owns Heckler & Koch by 2063. Even if nationality mattered (which it does not), Ruhrmetall (basically Rheinmetall renamed) would make as much sense as S-K.

I didn't mean to imply it was obvious or canon S-K owns H&K. That just happens to be how it is IMG.
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