Gender modified limit? Options

[Sandoval Smith]

Well, Cray's first post neatly summed up what I'd been trying to say. To rephrase my last post, this is one of those bits of realism that you could try and include in your game, but I completly fail to see the point.

[Apathy]

[my comment retracted because I'm just being a pain in the ass about it and the whole thing's pointless...]

[mmu1]

[mmu1]

[Otaku On Acid]

People, hobbies are good. Arguing on dumpshock over biology and political correctness is bad. Let's go with wasting more time on the first and not the second.

[Jason Farlander]

...but what if you consider arguing to be a hobby?

[Wounded Ronin]

I think gender average strength or gender average skill with guns is actually irrelevant to character creation.

Any shadowrun character you make is not an average person.

Look at it this way:

If I make a SR character with Strength 6, but the average strength is supposed to be 3, does that average strength actually have anything to do with my character? No.

So, whether or not your average woman is weaker than your average man has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you make a female character with STR 10 or something.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[spotlite]

I believe you can make athletics skill tests to increase your effective quickness for running. Could/does the same not apply to lifting? If you had weightlifting as a specialisation that's a bunch of dice to increase your effective Strength if you get successes for that specific test - there's a specific technique involved in weightlifting remember. An olympic level lifter probably has the skill at 6-8. That turn gives you extra dice for that test, and increases the maximum you can lift. The target numbers not any lower, but with rerolls you can probably get the odd success, which is picking it up but maybe not holding it. But it certainly becomes possible to both lift the weight in terms of allowance and in terms of number of dice applied to the test, and get enough successes to hold it for the necessary time.

I'm not getting into the gender modifier argument because I think its already been pretty much resolved and anything else is unagreeable cos there's plenty of data and studies to prove whatever the hell you want.

[RedmondLarry]

I think more men than women are likely to stay inside on a sunny day and play with dice and pieces of paper, or even just talk with each other over the internet about playing with dice and pieces of paper. Does that make men weaker? ;)

It's a great day outside, here in Redmond. See you all much later.

[spotlite]

Its a crappy evening here in Leeds, UK. So enjoy yourself you smug "£$%^! :D

[Zenmaxer]

What tables are you using to calculate TNs, AE?

[Austere Emancipa...]

SRComp, in the advanced Athletics rules section, Lifting and Throwing. The maximum weight you can attempt to lift overhead is STR x 12kg, and to do that you need to do a STR test against a TN of (weight / 10). Every additional success raises the amount you can lift by 10%. Or some such crap.

The rules could easily be read to mean you just can't lift anything heavier than STR x 12kg, and that's it. In fact, it's far easier to read the rules like that.

[Fygg Nuuton]

the fact that i was beaten up by a girl in grade school makes me think twice against it ;)

[RedmondLarry]

What were you doing at a Grade School in the first place?
How long do you think your bruises will last?

[Edward]

It is true that average and maximum strength are greater for men than women.

2 points why you shouldn’t model it in the game.

1) It is not politic.

2) The difference is less than the game resolution can show. A difference of 1 would be justified if the racial maximum were about 100.

Edward

[Fygg Nuuton]

[Da9iel]

Whoah! :noflame: Easy there! :noflame: I'll agree that this all is essentially unnecessary, but for crying out loud! :noflame: Suggesting that the strongest man in the world is only 0% to 1% stronger than the strongest woman in the world (we are dealing with attribute maximums) is crazy talk. :noflame: Sheesh. I expected pooh-poohing. Of course I realize that there are lots and lots of women stronger than me (str=3). Anything I said to indicate otherwise was followed by the I-am-just-joking-and-talking-out-of-my-hinder smiley.

But, first to give my share on the str side.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

And here I spent all these years assuming that the average racial stats reflected the aggregate average of all people in that race.

Silly me.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I don't think men should have any penalties to their maximum willpower, but any female without active invisibility should have a target number of 2 on all social tests used against men. Such as fast talking/persuasion/interrogation/all-round ruining of the one's life/etc... We're idiots when the other sex is around. We even know it, and we would rather be idiots than not have them around. Maybe gender max intelligence for men should be like a 0 or something.

But joking aside, accusing people of opposing gender modified stat limits out of a desire to be "PC" is ridiculous. "PC" is a term come up with by reactionaries that realized nobody liked them anymore when the continued to harbor wrong views when the rest of society had moved on. The term was probably born in a Ku Klux Klan war room as a means of making mainstream society look weak. Nobody here's opposing these modifications to avoid appearing insensitive toward anyone; they brought up the spectacularly valid point that averages have nothing to do with character creation, and the difference at the maximum end of the scale, if it actually exists, is trivial in a system where a human staying within the confines of his or her racial maximum is rated on a scale of 1-6, 3 being average and two steps down from that being considered barely ambulatory. As far as the charisma attribute goes, you might have a valid point in that it can't be measured in real life, and therefore opponents of gender modified limits can't use statistical evidence against you on that, but it also means that you can't prove any real need for women to be capable of being 1/6 more charismatic than men. If you want to get into anecdotal evidence, I would say that all joking aside, people tend to notice the charismatic actions of the opposite sex more than those of the same sex. For example, I never find myself thinking "Gee, my friends are nice. I like hanging around them." It's probably true, but I never notice it. I just sort of know that hanging around them is what I do. On the other hand, everytime a woman says something nice to one of my friends (unfortunately I can't use myself as an example in this one), they damn well make note of it and replay the moment in their heads 1,000 times. Also, people in general are morons, and charisma works really REALLY well against someone who, like me, is probably 2 steps away from thinking he's a toaster and only about half a step away from thinking that the British Empire needs to be stopped before American hegemony is threatened. Women are no more charismatic than men, and if there's a difference in the averages in strength between men and women, it doesn't affect character creation in any way. If there's a difference in the maximums, beside being impossible to prove (the strongest people in the world might not be the ones at the Olympics), the difference would probably not be very statistically significant (I failed statistics a few times, so I have no idea how to calculate that).

And to prove that this post isn't motivated by any plot to be "PC," I'd just like to add that I think various segments of society need to be irrationally feared, including the British, women, and the construction workers that woke me up this morning.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

We're idiots when attractive women are around. We can be rather cold bastards to the ugly ones.

[3Threes]

the key is to be a cold bastard around the hot ones so they think you don't think they are attractive which makes them insecure enough for you to be able to approach them on much better terms

-3Threes

[Da9iel]

Right. . . . :S

[Die blaue Reiter...]

ohhhhhh.... now I understand your intimidation techniques *dumb blond laugh*

[CircuitBoyBlue]

No, we're stupid when any female is around. We ARE cold bastards sometimes when a female that we're not attracted to is around, but that doesn't make us any less stupid. And also, a female doesn't have to be attractive for us to be attracted. Deceiving them is always justice, though, because we deceive each other enough that to not treat females like crap would be sexist.