What advantage do heretics get? Options

[Edward]

What advantage do heretics get?

I am looking at playing a hermetic “at some future date” ie I don’t have a game yet but hay I can dream.

I have played a shaman in the past. Totem modifiers tend to even out and once you initiate learning spells from formula is not worth the effort, just take astral quest for the formula and you get a couple of points of the karma cost.

The only functional difference is spirits and elementals. Elementals are expensive and last longer but you don’t get any more services (as a shaman I was burring threw the services mighty fast) and there list of powers is very restrictive (no accident)

Is there a benefit I am missing?

Edward

[Da9iel]

Well, heretics aren't bound by conventional beliefs nor by cannon. On the other hand, heretics have that whole ex-communication thing going. Wait...you meant hermetics.

If I'm not mistaken, you can sort of re-summon elementals. That may be interpreted by some GMs to mean that you don't need new materials. I'll look it up and be right back.

[Da9iel]

[Bane]

I think what Da9iel was talking about (edit: ah. well, still sort of applicable) comes into effect after an elemental goes away after using it for something like sustaining a spell or as a spell focus. If their force is reduced to 0 in this manner, you can call them back at full force with a complex action.

It's really a toss-up between elementals and nature spirits, IMO. On the one hand, you have hefty cost of summoning with the benefit of actually being able to affect the physical plane (i.e. punch stuff or engulf) as well as the nice features like using them as a spell focus, sustaining focus, and meat shield. On the other hand, instant-summonability, and nice utility powers like search, accident, and conceal.

So it's really a matter of what kind of mage you are playing. I find utility mages are generally better off as shamans, whereas powerhouse combat mages are better able to be powerhouses as hermetics.

[Da9iel]

Nature spirits get the Materialization power as well as Elementals. BBB p. 267
This means that they may punch things. BBB p. 265

[Bane]

Good call. I don't know what I was thinking. Perhaps that elementals are generally much better at it (read: engulf).


...at least, that's how it usually goes in my games.

[Capt. Dave]

In my opinion, elementals are better. Sure, you don't get confusion, guard, etc, but they can sustain spells, help you cast spells, cross domain lines (as they have none), and even be sent to Scandanavia to do a service for you.

As Da9iel said, you can summon elementals to "new obedience", meaning you basically sumon them again, but any services accrued add to the elemental's existing services.

As for hermetics themselves, you can get "totem modifiers" by aligning yourself to an element or creating a new "school" of magic.

There's more of course, but that's all from me for now.

Sorry for all the ""'s

[Glyph]

Hermetics may not be able to summon spirits on the fly, but since elementals can be kept on "stand-by", they tend to summon elementals during "down time". After that, they are able to call on their elementals without having to worry about soaking Drain, and they don't need to wait until initiation/getting invoking to have more than one of them. A city spirit can change the odds, but 6 fire elementals suddenly popping up really change the odds. Spirits may be more versatile, but elementals are better at brute-force combat, and they can be used almost like living foci, to add dice to your spells or to sustain them.

As far as spellcasting, you can play an elemental mage to get the equivalent of Totem bonuses. Since you don't have a shamanic mask, it is much easier to be inconspicuous in your spellcasting. Libraries may be more expensive, but you can take a bundle of optical disks with you, compared to a shaman, who has to pack up his Lodge, and then re-bond it somewhere else. And it has to be in his Totem's domain, which can be restrictive for certain Totems - what if you're a wolf shaman stuck in a paved-over sprawl, or a rat shaman stuck in the wilderness?

And you never have to worry about losing your magic because you have offended your Totem. Sure, players may pick Totems that suit them, but they still come with behavioral restrictions. A dog shaman who turns in a wanted teammate for a million nuyen reward, a wolf shaman who runs away and lets the teammate who did something dumb to set off the alarms get captured, the eagle shaman who figures it's worth a point of Magic to get a smartlink II - all of them are in deep doo-doo with their Totem. A mage who does any of those things may have a guilty conscience, but is not risking having his magic stripped from him.

[Da9iel]

On the other hand, consider that a shaman only needs to make one astral quest to his totem's metaplane for initiation, whereas a mage must go to all four. It's a rather small benifit, but one I've found useful.

[Cain]

*shudder* Hermetics are the only ones who can get full mileage out of the Watcher Attack Pack™ strategy. Picture an elf hermetic with 8 watchers, 8 Elementals, and an ally spirit, versus any astral target. With the single command of "Get 'em, boys", that nasty toxic spirit you had set to challenge the team now dies a whimpering death.

[Eyeless Blond]

[Kagetenshi]

Indeed. Hermetics are capable of having legions of elementals on call (or their Charisma, whichever is lower), while Shamans have got to work to get more than one and will rarely be able to hit three (one spirit per domain per shaman) and they lose any remaining services upon switching domains.

Edit: response to attack-pack comment.

~J

[Sphynx]

Unless hey learn a specific MetaTech, of course. Once that's learned, all advantages go to the Shaman IMHO.

Sphynx

[Kagetenshi]

Don't Great Forms have their own limitations, primarily drain-related? *Is insufficiently familiar with those rules*

~J

[mfb]

it's almost a finesse-versus-power thing. a shaman's spirits are incredibly handy for a number of things, and most shaman can whistle up one with decent force with very little problem. spirits can do a lot of very, very handy things. elementals, on the other hand, have more limited applications--they can help you cast, they can attack stuff. on the other hand, you can have lots of them, all doing different
things--or (shudder), all doing the same thing.

[lacemaker]

Do Shamans still get their initiate grade added to their totem bonus?

In any case, unless you're playng a very high cash campaign I think Shamans have a clear advantage. The totem bonus tends to be very handy, because of course you build you character around the kind of specialisations it offers, and I'll take the versatility of being able to whistle up a spirit whenever you need one (and the increased range of stuff they can do) over the ability to bring in a little extra firepower if you've had the time and money to prepare it.

[Edward]

Summoning an elemental during down time is l very well and good but if you don’t need it for this job it is wasted money. Heaven forbid you don’t get job for 30 days. Trying to keep elementals on retainer will make you more of a cash hog than a combat riger/decker.

If I was being payed a retainer I would do it.

The no drain is a big advantage however. Especially if your planing something BIG in 2 weeks. Summon elementals at a hire force than you would ever dear during a run and leave them on standby.

Edward

[Da9iel]

[Eyeless Blond]

[toturi]

[Sphynx]

[Nemo]

@Cain
with Charisma 8 you can have 8 Elementals or 7 Elementals and 1 Ally (Expection : you bound an Elemental to Guard a place)

[Edward]

I understood that 28 days after summoning an elemental left regardless of services owed.

Edward

[Da9iel]

I don't see that anywhere in BBB or MITS. If an elemental is present physically or astrally for 24 hrs, it counts as a service. The only place I see 28 days mentioned in regard to spirits is disrupting. A disrupted spirit may come back after 28 - force days.

[Synner]

Disregard. Wrong thread.