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> XM-8 on TV, On the History Channel
xythlord
post Sep 27 2004, 04:57 AM
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On at 10:00 (Mail Call) at the History Channel is going to be a segment on the XM-8 Advanced Battle Rifle.

Xythlord
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Bane
post Sep 27 2004, 05:24 AM
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XM-8 Advanced Battle Rifle?

Oh. You mean the plastic ray gun with realistic lights and sounds. ;)
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xythlord
post Sep 27 2004, 05:51 AM
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Yup that would be the one. :D

Actually the more that I look at this rifle the more I am impressed. I have been following the development of this since it was the OICW and without actually firing it (haven't had that pleasure yet......but I am hoping ;) ) I love it. Something I found out tonight that I didn't know but find interesting is that this little baby has Semi / Burst / and Full Auto. Seems the Military thinks that Full Auto would be useful again (which is a full 180 doctrinal change from the M16A2).

Xythlord
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 27 2004, 06:18 AM
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A plastic Raygun? Where do I get one? ;)

How easy is it to control your firing in full-auto? Can a trained user reliably fire a single round or three rounds on full auto, or is it more of a "one to six depending on weather and what you had for breakfast" kind of thing?

~J
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 27 2004, 06:55 AM
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The current XM-8s apparently have a cyclic RoF of 750. With any halfway decent trigger, and I'm sure this baby has a great one, you should be able to squeeze off 1 round at a time on FA easy. 1 round is usually the easiest. Trying to get off exactly 3 rounds is much more difficult, you might get some 2s and 4s every now and then. If you're well trained with the particular weapon, you should be able to do 3 as well.

When the cyclic RoF gets really high, or if you've got a lousy trigger, it gets more difficult. I couldn't get off a single round with the KK-62 LMG no matter how hard I tried, but that's got both 1000rpm RoF and a good old fashion MG action.
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Savior
post Sep 27 2004, 11:15 AM
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Also the versatility of the weapon looks very promising to say the least. With the Carbine, Assault, Match grade, and Machine Gun versions of the same weapon, and all of these versions a few simple parts and attachments away, this is truly a multi purpose weapon. Of course it could just turn out to be a jack of all trades and master of none. Also the side loading GL is actually able to handle the longer 40 mm rounds that the M-203 cannot load
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Pistons
post Sep 27 2004, 01:06 PM
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I do hope this conversation will lead to converting this weapon for inclusion in Shadowrun games. I don't enjoy shutting down threads that otherwise have nothing to do with the game.
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Lindt
post Sep 27 2004, 01:35 PM
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Auh, but this is gun talk! Besides, this couldent get converted, its too munchkin!
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otomik
post Sep 27 2004, 01:40 PM
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thats weird that they're calling it a Battle Rifle now, I suppose it's proper designation of Assault Rifle is just too un-PC (Battle Rifle describes a .308 like the FN-FAL, G3, M14, not a .223). Also I hate the term "war fighters" instead of soldiers, warriors, etc.

for conversions I'd say it would use the same stats as the G36 it's based on, even has similar barrel lengths for the various versions. 40mm grenade launcher probably won't last long until it's replacemed by a 25mm system (hopefully with integrated electronics so we can stop talking about the XM29 and XM25).
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xythlord
post Sep 27 2004, 01:51 PM
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Actually I am curious about converting a couple of features of the XM-8 to Shadowrun.

First off, the rifle uses a red sight aiming feature. I don't think that anyone has this converted yet but I would like to see what people think. My knee jerk response would be to have it similiar to a laser sight without the telltale "beam". This would eleminate the need for the "UV or IR laser sight".

The second thing is that the XM-8 is convertable with a change out of buttstock, barrel, foregrip to 4 different configurations (similiar to the AUG-CSL Weapon System of 2nd edition). Anybody got any ideas how to do this as an option in weapon design from CC (or Rayguns?)
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otomik
post Sep 27 2004, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (xythlord @ Sep 27 2004, 01:51 PM)
First off, the rifle uses a red sight aiming feature.  I don't think that anyone has this converted yet but I would like to see what people think...

The second thing is that the XM-8 is convertable with a change out of buttstock, barrel, foregrip to 4 different configurations (similiar to the AUG-CSL Weapon System of 2nd edition).

raygun's got the red dot sight already on the G36 conversion (yes it's game effect is similar to laser sight)
the different configurations mean a small difference in damage, range and weight (and then there's the different magazines).

word is that they'll be using something other than SS109, probably not a different cartridge altogether but perhaps polymer cased ammunition using a heavier bullet (similar to mk262).
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 27 2004, 02:27 PM
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I remember trying to do some stats earlier for the XM-8, but it's impossible to do them accurately and canonically, as you simply cannot get an Assault Rifle that light. It'll be very heavy and expensive, and magnificently useless compared to the monstrosities you can create with the Firearm Design rules in CC -- the latter because most RL weapons don't have much in the way of recoil compensation, mostly because it's difficult to achieve except with a muzzle brake, which has problems of its own.

The basic XM-8 carbine:
8M, SA/BF/FA
Concealability 5, Weight 4kg
Ammo 30©
Mounts: Barrel, Under
Top-mounted high-power "Laser Sight" (red dot sight), Easy Breakdown
Price: 2,965 (1,600 using Firearms Prices the Sensible Way)

You could make it 0.3kg lighter by using Ceramic Components-3, but otherwise that's as light as an AR with a Laser Sight gets. Most of the price (1,400) comes from the High-Power Laser Sight.

Colt M4A1
8M, SA/FA, Conc 5, Weight 4kg, Ammo 30 ©
Mounts: Barrel, Top, Under
Price: 1,340 (750)

The only way to make these into effective SR weapons would be to add a lot of RC (RC Design Option, and Gas Vents if you don't want to sound suppress the gun). To make them true to life, you'd have to tweak the price, weight, concealability and max levels of certain things: Weight Decrease (more levels available, in addition to lower starting weights for all weapons), Bipod (lower weight), Extended Clip (higher cap, lower DP cost), Laser Sight (lower DP cost).
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Johnson
post Sep 27 2004, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (xythlord)

First off, the rifle uses a red sight aiming feature. I don't think that anyone has this converted yet but I would like to see what people think. My knee jerk response would be to have it similiar to a laser sight without the telltale "beam". This would eleminate the need for the "UV or IR laser sight".


I have the Red dot sight which you use.

You aim the rifle and fire the same. The only other change is you aim with both eyes open.
the red dot cause an illusion to occur.
One eye sees the target, the other the red dot. which your brain sees the red dot on the image.

Let downs... You need light to filter through the sight ( Any light ) causes the red dot to glow in the front focal point.

Nice part about it is it is tailered to each person. As this relies on you setting the sight up for yourself. Anyone else would have a problem scoring perfect shots in the first to aimed shots fired. as you would have to compinsate your aim.

The greatest advantage is moving targets. You can also see obsticales that will come in to your field of vision. So a quick thinker can pull his shot off before cover plays a role.
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KarmaInferno
post Sep 27 2004, 02:59 PM
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QUOTE (Bane)
XM-8 Advanced Battle Rifle?

Oh. You mean the plastic ray gun with realistic lights and sounds. ;)

Isn't that what they called the M-16 when it came out?

:D


-karma
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Chance359
post Sep 27 2004, 03:31 PM
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As much as I love the XM-8, I gotta wonder how long before it'll be introduced. I mean I've been sitting on post with my '16 for for the better part of a year now, but I was supposed to be issued a M-4 roughly eight months ago. Of course I am in the Air Force, so that might have something to do with it.

Hopefully if the Air Force adopts the XM-8, they'll order enough for everyone so new troops don't show up to their new base only to find that they aren't qualified on what that squadron uses.
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BitBasher
post Sep 27 2004, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE
You aim the rifle and fire the same. The only other change is you aim with both eyes open.
Um... AFAIK you should always be shooting with both eyes open.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 27 2004, 05:39 PM
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If you can aim with both eyes open with a diopter sight, you're a better man than most. It's damn near impossible. If you've only got diopter sights, you're better off not looking through the sights in most situations where keeping both eyes open would be best. We always flipped up the open (notch) night sights on our RK-62s in MOUT.
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otomik
post Sep 27 2004, 05:41 PM
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Bushmaster Carbon-15, now thats a lightweight rifle.
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/carbon15/
3.9lbs/1.77kg

they also make a .223 pistol if you're a Fallout gamer, which would actually be an interesting shadowrun weapon if you wanted a pistol that could realistically pierce body armor (not to mention the CZ-52)
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Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 27 2004, 05:55 PM
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That's still pretty massive for a pistol. Could easily be considered a Concealability 4 (the Concs for XM8 and M4 above are so high because there's no way to canonically make them less Concealable). The FN 5-7 should fare pretty well against soft body armor as well (regardless of the suckiness of FN 5-7C in SR canon), and you aren't going to making a big hole in tissue with any of these.
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Leowulf
post Sep 27 2004, 06:23 PM
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Perhaps what would be best here, in order to preserve an end result closest to canon, is to design 4 different guns, add together the costs for all 4, and make that the total price of the gun. This is done on the AUG-CSL and the HK G38, it seems. With 4 different gun configurations designed, you prettymuch solve the problem of having 4 different stat sets. This is also done on the two mentioned above. Next, since the XM8 seems to be able to fire different sizes of ammunition, as a GM, you could require your players who make and use this gun to have a different type of ammo for each configuration.

I was watching Mail Call, and I remember them saying that it fired 5.56mm in assault rifle mode. Maybe it fires 7.62mm (or perhaps 9mm rifle rounds; this is Shadowrun, after all) in a SA rifle configuration. Carbine could use a lighter 5.56mm. Maybe 7.62mm in machine gun configuration. Give it a top-mounted high-powered laser sight for the red dot, and then give it an optical magnification scope in the same place.

Something to remember, I think, is that the guns in the books don't always follow the rules. If you want to make it lighter, say by adding more levels of weight reduction, hey, why not? Why not just let it stand at each configuration's individual weight though?

For a .223 pistol from Fallout, take a sport rifle and give it a barrel reduction with clip loading instead of internal magazine, and you now have a rifle the size of a heavy pistol, in terms of concealability. Increase power by 2 and specify that the gun is the shape and size of a pistol in its description. BOOM! You now have a pistol with concealability 4 that does 9S with SA firing.

Remember how you got the pistol not long after you got the sport rifle in Fallout games? Makes sense right?

The rule about not being able to use smartgun systems with vision systems always has bothered me. It's stupid! To me, it's conceivable that one's Limited Simsense Rig would still know where the gun is pointing, unless it's an electronig magnification, even if one is looking through a scope. I think the creators of the game put the rule in to keep snipers from killing everyone. I think I'll discard it in my games as a House Rule.
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Raygun
post Sep 27 2004, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
A plastic Raygun? Where do I get one?

What, you haven't seen my action figure yet? :)

QUOTE (Savior)
With the Carbine, Assault, Match grade, and Machine Gun versions of the same weapon

Kind of getting into semantics here, but there are no "match grade" or "machine gun" variants of the XM8. There is a 20" barreled "sharpshooter" version which is really nothing more than a longer-barreled version of the standard 12.5" XM8. There are no additional "match grade" parts. It still fires full auto and all that good stuff. Basically, this "sharpshooter" variant would replace the M16A2 (and be used in a designated marksman/squad sniper role) while the standard 12.5" barreled version would replace the M4 (and be general issue).

Machine guns are, by definition, crew-served (shooter, spotter), belt fed, and are capable of barrel changes in the field in order to support a large volume of fire. There is no belt-fed or quick-change barrel variant of the XM8. There's a "automatic rifle" variant of the XM8 that uses the same barrel assembly as the "sharpshooter" variant, and could (theoretically) be used in the same role that the M249 SAW is used today, but being that it lacks the machine gun features of the SAW, it's really not capable of sustaining fire the way the M249 can. It also depends on large-capacity C-Mags, which are not really known for their reliability. I don't really see the US military using this variant.

Here's a layout of the XM8 system.

Lots of cool videos here, seven videos of Jim Schatz demonstrating the XM8 at the bottom.

QUOTE (otomik)
word is that they'll be using something other than SS109, probably not a different cartridge altogether but perhaps polymer cased ammunition using a heavier bullet (similar to mk262).

Speaking of which, here's a link to the plastic cased stuff.
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Leowulf
post Sep 27 2004, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (Raygun)
I don't really see the US military using this variant.

I got the feeling while watching the segment on Mail Call that this was clever misinformation. It didn't look quite usable to me either. Though, as they said, it is still being developed.
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Arethusa
post Sep 27 2004, 07:00 PM
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I missed that episode, so just in case, was there any information on how the military is planning on dealing with the fact that all of their new rifles will be completely incapable of engaging long range targets? The XM8 sounds wonderful for most urban combat, but I'd hate to be stuck with the thing in any environment where range could become a debilitating factor.
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otomik
post Sep 27 2004, 07:00 PM
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actually the latest intel is that they merged the designs of the DMR (designated marksmans rifle) and AR (automatic rifle) into the DMAR, which combines their features (bipod, heavy 20'' barrel). i think it was a smart move.

future modifications may include a ammo counting device, ala Aliens. :smokin:
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/xm81.html
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otomik
post Sep 27 2004, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa @ Sep 27 2004, 07:00 PM)
...was there any information on how the military is planning on dealing with the fact that all of their new rifles will be completely incapable of engaging long range targets?  The XM8 sounds wonderful for most urban combat, but I'd hate to be stuck with the thing in any environment where range could become a debilitating factor...

these limitations have already been addressed to an extent. original 55-grain M193 was a real short range jungle fighting round, then NATO standardized on FN's SS109/M855 with it's 62-grain which is better at range. more recently there has been a lot of expermentation 77-grain bullets. People have made match rifles that perform at 500 yards using 77 grain bullets.
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#mk262

there's a lot of speculation on this, here's me and a few other mall ninjas talking about it on another thread http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=2784

buttom line, those in command consider a new ammunition an integral part of the XM8 program, and 77-grain mk262 performs better in short barrel rifles and better at range too, we can only hope.

raygun action figure, i'd buy that for a dollar
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