 XM-8 on TV, On the History Channel |
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 Oct 1 2004, 03:00 AM
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#51
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King of the Hobos  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127  |
Ah crap, always keep getting those mixed up. :oops: Bloody decimal places, should just round up I say. I hearby rename it the 8.00 caliber bullet. ;)
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Oct 1 2004, 04:08 AM
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#52
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Gah! Back to WW2 and 8mm Mauser that's really 7.92mm Mauser, not to confused with 7.92mm Mauser Kurz!
Seriously, it's a really common misconception about the SVD and Russian 7.62mm rifle rounds in general, and it's not helped by the fact that tons of games and websites propogate that mistake and just make things worse in general. |
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Oct 1 2004, 04:18 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
true, 7.62x39mm is the metric description of both the .30 Soviet Intermediate round and the .30 Nagant Revolver cartridge. they're not very creative those bulsheviks.
Arethusa putting an R at the end like mmR can mean "Rimmed", i don't think you mean that. |
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Oct 1 2004, 05:22 AM
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#54
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I did not know that. I've actually only ever seen it used to designate Russian. I think I'll stop doing that now.
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Oct 1 2004, 06:36 AM
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#55
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
It's not the size of your gun, it's the quantity of ammo at hand.
-Siege |
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Oct 1 2004, 06:43 AM
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#56
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Actually, you're right on the money there. If it were my army, I'd take a page from the Russian playbook and deploy one or two of what we tend to call "designated marksmen" (as opposed to "snipers") with each squad and equip them with a more powerful semi-automatic rifle, like the M14. These guys wouldn't be honest-to-God-fully-trained scout/snipers, but they would be used in a concealment and precision fire role in the context of squad tactics, similar to how the Russians use their snipers (or used to). Ammunition would be interchangable with machine guns (7.62x51mm NATO; M60 or M240), though the DMs would use a match round (US M118) in practice rather than a machine gun round (US M80, better than nothing). Ammo usage also wouldn't be as much of a problem either, as DM rifles would be semi-auto only. The SVD has ammunition compatibility with the PK machine gun. |
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Oct 1 2004, 07:36 AM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The confusion probably originates from the 7.62x54mmR, since that round is rimmed, and it may be called the "7.62x54mm Russian" somewhere. Is USMC already employing those M21 DMR's for the Security Forces and FAST teams? There was the contest for a new USMC DMR back in 1997/1998, in which the H&K MSG90A1 took part, but lost to the modified M14/M21. |
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Oct 1 2004, 01:01 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
I think you can make a good DM rifle from the XM8 DMAR provided appropriate ammunition (like 77-grain Hollow Point Boat Tail). something like the Mk12 SPR.
The thing i wonder about is the optics, a 4x scope isn't good for house to house, and doesn't make the long range people happy either. and yet all of them from the 9.5'' to the 20'' have the same optics. correct me if i'm wrong. If they would just put our real sniper rifles in .300 winmag like they were supposed to, that would fill all heavier roles nicely. I think the SVD was a smart move for the russians but it makes more sense for them then it does us because of the forementioned 7.62x39mm loopy trajectory. |
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Oct 1 2004, 01:31 PM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
My understanding is that only the DM(AR) has the 4x magnification, the others have a non-magnifying (or very slightly magnifying) red dot sight. I have only seen the magnification mentioned with the DM(AR), and a few sources do mention it having a different, if similar looking, sighting module.
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Oct 1 2004, 02:41 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
hmm, some sources say 4x and some say 3.5x for the DMAR
i don't know what the other variant use, perhaps no magnification, perhaps 1.5x like the G36E (i think thats the version Spain uses). i heard one of the problems of the SA80/L85 is it's standard 4x SUSAT scope. |
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Oct 1 2004, 06:07 PM
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#61
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I think an XM8 DMAR would make an okay DM rifle, but it would be far from ideal. There simply isn't enough bullet there to do the job the way it needs to be done. Again, I was just fantasizing. The full-scale adoption of a specialized DM rifle is pretty unlikely to happen. If the army does choose to go with the DM concept, those riflemen will likely end up with some longer-barreled version of the standard rifle, whether it's the XM8 or the M468.
The second generation optics for the XM8 include a 1x red dot optic plus laser pointer/designator module designed to replace the M68 Close Combat Optic (Aimpoint M2) and AN-PEQ 2 laser designator, and a 4x red dot optic plus laser pointer/designator module designed to replace the ACOG and AN-PEQ 2. It's all in the NDIA Power Point presentation I linked to earlier. There are two different optics. The second gen XM8 also includes backup iron sights so that if the DM is participating in CQB and doesn't have a backup CCO, he can just remove the 4x optic and use irons.
For snipers maybe, but the .300 Win Mag was never seriously considered for use in a semi-auto rifle, which is something the Designated Marksman would need to have. Sniper equipment is another discussion entirely.
The SVD was used in the same capacity after the adoption of the 5.45x39mm, so I doubt that bullet trajectory was the determining factor in why the Russians chose to use the SVD the way they did (and AFAIK, still do). It's a different tool for a different job. It doesn't matter what bullet is loaded in a 5.56x45mm case, when you get out past the 500m range, it just doesn't get the job done the way it needs to unless you're shooting gophers or coyotes. You just plain need a bigger stick. |
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Oct 1 2004, 08:05 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
debateable, 5.45mm is different from 5.56mm, it fires a slightly lighter bullet at a slightly lower velocity and the AK series is not as accurate as the AR series. They've tried to make 5.56mm DM rifles before, even though any 5.56mm is unlikely to have much juice at 500yrds, in long range military situations i think just making em bleed is good enough, thats enough to take them out of the fight. CQB you want them on the ground immediately, SR assasinations you want them dead for sure, law enforcement you want them on the ground immediately before they can threaten anyone, but average military... 5.56mm DM rifle, not ideal but has a few practical advantages.
I believe the military does consider .300 to be important for DM rifles. unless the HK this page is incorrect:
http://www.hkpro.com/msg90.htm "The gun was ultimately not considered by the Marines because it is not retrofittable to .300 Win Mag caliber." on this page http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?...t=.300+military there is a .300winmag "Interdiction Rifle" based on a modern Browning BAR |
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Oct 3 2004, 01:31 PM
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#63
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
5.56x45mm M855 (BC = .307) 62 grain FMJBT @ 2990 fps = 1231 fpe V/E/Drop/Drift @ 100m: 2685/992/1.7/0.5 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 200m: 2399/792/0/0.9 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 300m: 2133/626/-7.7/4.6 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 400m: 1885/489/-23.2/8.6 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 500m: 1655/377/-48.4/14.3 5.56x45mm Mk262 MOD 1 (BC = .362) 77 grain HPBT @ 2730 fps = 1274 fpe V/E/Drop/Drift @ 100m: 2484/1055/2.1/0.4 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 200m: 2252/867/0/1.8 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 300m: 2033/707/-9.0/4.3 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 400m: 1828/571/-26.4/8.1 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 500m: 1636/458/-54.2/13.3 5.45x39mm 5N7 (BC = .282 (est.)) 54 grain FMJBT @ 2950 fps = 1043 fpe V/E/Drop/Drift @ 100m: 2622/824/1.8/0.5 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 200m: 2316/643/0/2.1 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 300m: 2033/495/-8.3/5.1 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 400m: 1772/376/-25.1/9.8 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 500m: 1536/283/-53.0/16.3 7.62x39mm M43 (BC = .270 (est.)) 122 grain FMJBT @ 2380 fps = 1546 fpe V/E/Drop/Drift @ 100m: 2080/1172/3.3/0.7 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 200m: 1804/881/0/3.1 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 300m: 1554/654/-14.1/7.4 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 400m: 1340/486/-42.6/14.2 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 500m: 1172/372/-90.6/23.5 All from 16" barrels, 10 mph crosswind. Ballistic coefficients for the Russian cartridges were estimated using JBM's drag calculator. We're talking about grunts with rifles. Most of the time the rifle is going to be more accurate than the person firing it anyway, so the AR vs. AK accuracy argument is largely irrelevant.
Not for very long and that's the problem. Unless it's vital, it's not going to take a surgeon to repair that kind of wound. It's going to take some tweezers and a bandage, and the guy is back up in running around, likely the same day. I'd rather up the odds of taking him out of the fight permanently. 7.62x51mm M118 (BC = .496) 175 grain HPBT @ 2550 fps = 2526 fpe V/E/Drop/Drift @ 100m: 2376/2194/2.3/0.3 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 200m: 2210/1898/0/1.4 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 300m: 2051/1634/-9.5/3.3 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 400m: 1899/1401/-27.2/6.2 V/E/Drop/Drift @ 500m: 1754/1195/-54.6/10.0
You want them completely out of the fight. Dead. You may settle for injury because it's better than nothing, but what you want is for there to be no way of fighting back, period. That means dead.
It's lighter in weight, and in the case of the XM8, largely parts-compatible with the standard infantry rifle. Those are about the only advantages I can see.
Exactly. Insisting on a possible conversion to .300 Win Mag put all militarily-viable semi-auto rifles out of this particular DMR program, which was stupid. Other than the .300 Win Mag being tres chic at the time, why they insisted on possible conversion to it is beyond me. It's a fine 1,200 meter cartridge for snipers, but that's a bit much for a designated marksman. Conincidentally, the Army insisted the same thing for the M24 (which is an actual sniper rifle), and so far appear never to have even given a second thought to actually converting some of those rifles to .300 Win Mag (except for competition purposes).
Great. Still too much rifle for the DM role. |
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