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> Aha! Finally a way to destroy the ultra tank!
Da9iel
post Sep 28 2004, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (BBB p. 149)
Any passenger attack with a Deadly Damage Level also inflicts Light damage against the vehicle. The damage occurs at the same time as the attack on the passenger and cannot be resisted.

Previous to this quote it is explained that passenger attacks have their power reduced by the vehicles armor or body, whichever is higher.

General problem: It is easier to penetrate armor while attacking a passenger than it is to penetrate armor while directly attacking a vehicle. The power is not halved against passengers.

Interpretation #1: If a passenger suffers a deadly wound, mark a tic on the vehicle condition monitor.
Special problem: low bodied passengers (and riggers with that +3) make the vehicle more fragile. Bad interpretation, go to #2.

Interpretation #2: If the damage the passenger must resist is deadly (i.e. 1D), mark a tick on the vehicle condition monitor.
Special problem: the general problem is magnified many, many times! Ten bursts (say 7S base, 10D burst) at normally impregnable armor (6) and the vehicle is toast. :love:

Fix? Halve the power just like direct vehicle attacks.
Problem: passengers in a van (bod4) are now immune to assault rifle fire. :P

What's a body to do? Aim the AVM at the driver! :D
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Canid13
post Sep 28 2004, 11:27 AM
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I can see where you're coming from. It does kinda make carrying passengers a weakness - but I'd have thought that the power was still halved since you're still shooting the vehicle so you still get penalised for shooting through this big hunk of metal.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 28 2004, 11:31 AM
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They do still get the vehicle's armor for cover. That and the fact that the windows are usually opaque and equally heavily armored, if there are any windows…

~J
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Cray74
post Sep 28 2004, 12:18 PM
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I've always been partial to the "have the fire elemental manifest in the crew compartment" means of dealing with armored vehicles.
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Canid13
post Sep 28 2004, 01:19 PM
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Unfortunately, there's too many 'Spirit Ball Grenades' in my campaign for that to work effectively :o)
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Zenmaxer
post Sep 28 2004, 02:09 PM
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My issue with this is that passengers are still protected by vehicular armor which if I remember is the factor that makes it halve and stage down once...


or you can have a salamander manifest in the fuel tank.

Also note... to my knowledge there is no minimum on the physical size of a manifested salamander, at least not that I have noticed... Stats may be given somewhere defining it for all spirits, but I don't know what or where they are, if they exist. If there are none, a salamander could manifest inside the engine and use its flamethrower innate spell.
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Canid13
post Sep 28 2004, 02:30 PM
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Salamander stats are in MITS, and they do give a physical description. Not that it matters all that much, this is a spirit afterall :o)
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Zenmaxer
post Sep 28 2004, 02:36 PM
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Right, but the physical description doesn't state a minimum size, just what they happen to look like.
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Canid13
post Sep 28 2004, 03:12 PM
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Very true. And the usual 'BOD rule of thumb' don't work much for spirits :o)
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Adarael
post Sep 28 2004, 11:52 PM
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My rule of thumb on this particular problem is solved by a two part question 9and caveat) I put forth.
#1) Is physically striking a passenger possible, without first firing through the vehicle's armor plating? If no, such in the case of crew compartments in IFVs, do not pass go. You cannot shoot through windows/viewing slots if there is an armored plate *currently down* over them.
#2) Would a shot to an exposed passenger neccessitate the round/shell/weapon passing through parts of the vehicle? If no, such as in an open-backed Humvee, the weapon does not *automatically* do damage to the vehicle, but will generally do the light wound if the round/weapon is especially damaging or explosive. See 'Assault Cannon', 'Explosive charge,' or 'Dikoted blade-based weapon in strong man's hands.'

The caveat is that shooting at a passenger in most vehicles with decent cover (military vehicles, armored & window-tinted cars, planes, etc) firing at a pilot, driver or passenger usually neccesitates a called shot to be able to do *at all*.
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Da9iel
post Sep 29 2004, 04:05 AM
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A whole section on shooting passengers and nowhere did they mention called shots. After all, people don't shrink just because they jump into a vehicle.
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Kagetenshi
post Sep 29 2004, 04:13 AM
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But the area of them you can actually hit does shrink.

~J
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Da9iel
post Sep 29 2004, 05:13 AM
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No it doesn't. If you were targeting the portion of them that is behind glass, yes it would. But the rules use vehicular body or armor as a barrier rating. You can shoot through any part of that door, not just the window.

[EDIT]Door, roof, floor, rear, firewall, etc.[/EDIT]
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Da9iel
post Sep 29 2004, 06:00 AM
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Oh, and Zenmaxer, it specifically states not to stage down damage. The half power thing is not stated either way. I would think that they'd put it in there if you were still supposed to do it, then again, I did address the half power thing in my initial post.
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Adarael
post Sep 29 2004, 06:13 AM
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QUOTE
A whole section on shooting passengers and nowhere did they mention called shots. After all, people don't shrink just because they jump into a vehicle.


Witness an IFV. If, say, you're using a Remington 950 with 9S damage, and you're attempting to shoot the driver, your weapon will probably not be able to penetrate the vehicle's armor if you wish to target the vehicle. Why? Armor between 12-18, depending on the class of IFV seems logical (what with 12 for lightly armored vehicles, 18 for a banshee, et cetera). If you wish to shoot the driver, I see no reason to allow your shot to strike him if it is usually unable to damage the vehicle, without some kind of called shot penalty for firing through the viewing slot or armored windowpane.

I.E. I make rules follow general 'vehicle damage' rules. If someone wishes to kill two birds with one stone by doing damage to a passenger and the vehicle at the same time, and yet do not wish to have the massive penalties associated with firing at a vehicle applied to them, they have to make a called shot.
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Da9iel
post Sep 29 2004, 06:17 AM
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That's fine. Just understand that your called shot is not canon. :)
[EDIT]No, wait. I stepped over the line. The called shot is not necessarily canon.[/EDIT]
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Jason Farlander
post Sep 29 2004, 07:31 AM
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nitpick:

cannon = large heavy gun

canon = an accepted principle or rule/a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms.
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Da9iel
post Sep 29 2004, 07:51 AM
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Noted and fixed. Thank you.
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Da9iel
post Sep 29 2004, 10:36 AM
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Blind fire! The would be tank buster is thwarted by +8 blind fire through those "tinted windows." Ugh! That's even worse than a called shot!
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DigitalMage
post Sep 29 2004, 11:33 AM
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QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
My issue with this is that passengers are still protected by vehicular armor which if I remember is the factor that makes it halve and stage down once...

Vehicular Armour is not the factor that casues the Power to be halved and the Damage Level dropped a stage, rather it is the fact that a vehicle has so much mass. Even a vehicle without armour benefits from the halved Power and reduced Damage Level.
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