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> Confused with Drakes, CharGen problem?
JongWK
post Sep 30 2004, 09:01 PM
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I'm going through DotSW for the Nth time since I got it, but I still can't figure out a little problem I have with Drakes.

-Using the BP system (SR Comp)
Do you have to pay extra points for them to be orks or elves? Would they get both the Drake and Ork bonuses?

-Using the Priority system (SR3)
If "Drake" takes the Race slot (at a higher level, obviously), how do make him metahuman?

:wobble:
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Cochise
post Sep 30 2004, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (JongWK)
-Using the BP system (SR Comp)
Do you have to pay extra points for them to be orks or elves?


Yes ...

QUOTE
Would they get both the Drake and Ork bonuses?


Yes ...
But at least the german version of Dot6W makes some changes there *obviously someone thought that it wold be too powerful*:
The racial modifiers for the metahuman body do only apply for that metahuman body ... That results in some crazy (not to say stupid) side effects, like having to take notes on the attribute values before racial modifiers ...

QUOTE
-Using the Priority system (SR3)
If "Drake" takes the Race slot (at a higher level, obviously), how do make him metahuman?


Impossible ... Just as impossible as to make him an aspected magician ...


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Tanka
post Sep 30 2004, 09:36 PM
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Possible to make them Aspected. Bump Race to A and ignore it. Or keep Magic at A and choose to be Aspected instead. Most GMs will allow it, since otherwise Drakes get screwed out of being Aspected/Adept.
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Cochise
post Sep 30 2004, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE (tanka)
Possible to make them Aspected.

Not without changing something ...

QUOTE
Bump Race to A and ignore it.


Possibility one ...

QUOTE
Or keep Magic at A and choose to be Aspected instead.


Possibility two ... But that option is very unlikely going to be used. Since players tend to take full advantage of what they paid for ... And Prio A is full magician after all ...

QUOTE
Most GMs will allow it, since otherwise Drakes get screwed out of being Aspected/Adept.


It would have been better to make them BP-only just as Ghouls ...
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Tanka
post Sep 30 2004, 09:49 PM
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It can be better to be Aspected. How so? More Spell Points. Not to mention that some people won't allow PhysMages, so in order to play a PhysAd Drake (ouch), either Race A/Magic B or Magic A/Race B.
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Cochise
post Sep 30 2004, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (tanka)
It can be better to be Aspected. 

Did I question that? Not to my knowledge ...

QUOTE
How so?  More Spell Points.


So? ... Still you can't cast all spells and / or summon all spirits according to your tradition.
In regards to astral projection you're stuck with a very problematic rule concerning dual natured beings ...

QUOTE
Not to mention that some people won't allow PhysMages


Which has nothing to do with the rules ;)

QUOTE
so in order to play a PhysAd Drake (ouch), either Race A/Magic B or Magic A/Race B.


The first is still not mentioned in the rules and the second solution is still a waste of priorities ...
You'd be still better of doing it with BP-system ...



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JongWK
post Sep 30 2004, 10:09 PM
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How about this options for the Priority system:

A: Magic (Full, Aspected or Adept... you choose)
B: Drake (Human)

A: Drake (Metahuman)
B: Magic (Aspected or Adept)

I'm still not sure about Drakes getting both the metahuman and drake bonus at the same time... Think they stack?
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Tanka
post Sep 30 2004, 10:11 PM
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Jong: Icky, ew. What if a meta wants to be full? Might as well give them the finger and laugh in their face.

Cochise: Yes, BP is much better. However, not all GMs allow it, so that kind of screws people over.
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Bane
post Sep 30 2004, 10:59 PM
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A game in which the GM allows you to play a Drake, but does not allow you to use the Building Point system, seems somewhat counterintuitive.
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Artemus
post Sep 30 2004, 11:01 PM
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The whole Drake thing is a mess IMHO. Half the stuff in on Threats 2 the other half on DotSW. Not to mention that the Perception tests have different target numbers between Threats 2 and DotSW (they decreased it by 1).

I think the whole subject is moot, though. Playing a drake to me would be so restricting. You are either running all the time or jumping through hoops for a Great. As a GM I wouldn't allow a character to start off as a Drake.

DotSW says Drakes are priority B. That means that if they want to be anything other than a Human, they can't be a magician or adept. Since one priority is used for being a drake and then an additional priority is used for the metatype. Now if the drake wants to be a full magician per DotSW text, he's out of luck. They don't detail how to handle that through the Priority system.

So in conclusion, unless you are using the Build Point system, starting off as a Drake is very limiting. By the way Jong, are you just curious or is someone/you thinking about creating a drake character?

Unless as a GM you allow the character to double up on a priority. I think that's the only way to do it.

ps: Jong, if you have time to peruse the forums, you should also have time to give me my review... ;).

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Tanka
post Sep 30 2004, 11:07 PM
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As I said, some GMs are screwy. I personally don't know any like that (most say no to BP/Drake/Ghoul/et cetera).

If you have a person who wants to play a Drake, you can easily base a campaign on it. Keeping away from the Greats, or running to their favorite. Working for or against under another. Anything like that.

Hell, played one that worked for Ghostwalker. Oddly enough, I described her appearance as what Ghostwalker's human form is (without ever reading one blurb on him). Ironic, neh?
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Canid13
post Oct 1 2004, 09:56 AM
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According to my copy of DotSW, Drakes use priority B for race and any awakened type is priority A (aspected, adept, mage, shaman, anything).

The second race thing is something I've been thinking about, and I can't come up with anything I'm truly happy with. In the Forth World, drakes were all human. However, these are people with the genetic material for it after 3700 years of breeding with other 'races' so I'd allow someone to play a troll/drake and keep it at priority B - don't see why a meta/drake couldn't be awakened.

After some thought and several re-reads, I've come to the conclusion that the racial bonuses for each form applies in that form only - in other words, no stacking. However, I'd say adept powers and stuff worked on both forms - not soo sure on the dragon related powers but don't see why not - still thinking on armour though :o)

One major difference, is that according to DotSW drakes are not shapeshifters as we know them. They are a new kind, one which is a metahuman first and then changes. And if memory serves, you don't need to assign attribute points seperately like you do for a normal shapeshifter.

I've no problems with my players being drakes - and they've encountered two NPC drakes already. Drakes ain't a major problem in my opinion, though the dragon stuff is kinda sticky it's a challenge for the player to come up with something and then we tweak it into a backstory.
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RedmondLarry
post Oct 1 2004, 10:30 AM
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Canid13, great evaluation and great presentation. Very clear and well thought out. I agree on all your points except Drake abilities working in human form.

I particularly agree with the no stacking of metahuman mods and Drake mods to physical attributes. For example, a Troll/Drake doesn't get +2 reach when in Drake Form. And the Troll's dermal armor doesn't count when in Drake Form.

During character design you don't allocate attribute points across 9 attributes (like a shapeshifter), only 6.

I'll add the following positions:
Bred Drakes should get 6 points of natural armor (impact and ballistic) when in Drake Form, even though DotSW left this out.

Drake abilities only work in Drake Form. (flame, vision, hearing, etc.)

Karma Costs for skill and attribute increases are all based off the (meta)human attributes, not the Drake attributes.

Drakes can use Reaction as their claw-to-claw melee combat skill.

In (meta)human form, Drake characters do not have a +2 penalty when Astrally Perceiving, because they are naturally dual natured.
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Canid13
post Oct 1 2004, 11:13 AM
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OurTeam, I agree completely on all points. However, I could allow a drake to use Edged Weapons or Unarmed combat to make claw attacks in dracoform. The way I see it, if other skills work in dracoform or metaform then why not unarmed or edged?
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 1 2004, 11:14 AM
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Unarmed, yes. Claws aren't used remotely similar to edged weapons. Cyber-implant combat would be more arguable.

~J
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JongWK
post Oct 1 2004, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE
By the way Jong, are you just curious or is someone/you thinking about creating a drake character?


Nah, just curious after doing some fact-finding. Most of my players don't even suspect they exist, though one that did hear about them said she would like to play one. She backed off after learning their creation costs...

QUOTE
ps: Jong, if you have time to peruse the forums, you should also have time to give me my review... ;).


:P Anxious, aren't you? I'll see what I can do, though you can start by trying to incorporate some of Bira's ideas. More on that later by PM.
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PiXeL01
post Oct 1 2004, 12:40 PM
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Sadly my group consists of several munchins you would do anything to grind out more points and more advantages.
Recently one of my players came to me and asked if he could create a drake which was also a mage. My response was "sure, go away if you are ready to be hunted like a rabid dog". Next question was if he was allowed to use the priority system instead of the BP system for his drake ... Since he wanted to create (listen to this one) an albino Dwarf-Drake he would save alot of points through the priority system instead of using the BP system.
My responce to him was race - A if you want to be a meta-drake and magic .. now you have to choose.

Guess my point is ... IMHO you should only allow the use of Shapeshifters, Drakes, Meta-variants and Ghouls if you use the BP system ...

...

I would rule you could your unarmed skill for claw/bite attacks, just with a few penalties if we are talking about a newly "awakened" drake
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snowRaven
post Oct 1 2004, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE
The second race thing is something I've been thinking about, and I can't come up with anything I'm truly happy with. In the Forth World, drakes were all human. However, these are people with the genetic material for it after 3700 years of breeding with other 'races' so I'd allow someone to play a troll/drake and keep it at priority B - don't see why a meta/drake couldn't be awakened.


Actually, according to the ED Dragons pdf "Drakes have two forms. Their 'natural' form is that of a miniature dragon about five to seven feet long from head to tail. They can also assume the forms of the different Name-Giver races. Drakes cannot assume windling or obsidiman form because duplicating the special magical natures of those Name-Giver races would be too difficult."

This goes for true drakes, which then (by SR standards) should be able to switch between all metatypes (if I'm interpreting the above passage correctly). EDIT: It actually says in the text on pg.47, where the Great Dragon Vasdenjas speaks to Tiabdjin: "A drake can assume the form of any of the Young Races, except for windlings (too small) and obsidimen (a mix of flesh and elemental earth)."

Judging by the rest of the ED rules for Drakes, True Drake attributes shouldn't stack with those of the metatype - the Drake form is their natural form. Bred drakes are a different issue, though. According to Threats pg.80: Drake form: Strength N+4, where 'N' rquals the drake's normal attribute in human or metahuman form. To me this can only be interpreted in one way, and that is that you apply the drake bonuses to the actual attribute of the metahuman character - if your troll has Strength 10, he has Strength 14 in Drake form.
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Just Jonny
post Oct 2 2004, 05:15 AM
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With regards to doubling up for priorities, I'd think it could be done via Sum to 10 character creation rules in the priority system.
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D.Generate
post Oct 2 2004, 05:28 AM
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I'm so sick of all this Drake crap, pesonally i think its the dumbest thing they ever did to shadowrun. Its getting to the point where its like DnD with guns.

As a gm i would laugh in the face of any player who wanted to make a drake since even reading about them i get the impression that there are so few of them in the world that its likely 99% of the entire world population would ever see a drake. And why would a creature like that run in the shadows?

I'm sorry players should not be drakes, an npc drake maybe but no player should be allowed to make one the fact that they even give hint at the option to be one just makes my blood boil.

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Tanka
post Oct 2 2004, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (D.Generate)
I'm so sick of all this Drake crap, pesonally i think its the dumbest thing they ever did to shadowrun. Its getting to the point where its like DnD with guns.

As a gm i would laugh in the face of any player who wanted to make a drake since even reading about them i get the impression that there are so few of them in the world that its likely 99% of the entire world population would ever see a drake. And why would a creature like that run in the shadows?

I'm sorry players should not be drakes, an npc drake maybe but no player should be allowed to make one the fact that they even give hint at the option to be one just makes my blood boil.

Oi, man. Calm down about it. It's your game, you can nay-say whatever addition to the game you don't like. However, other people like the flavor it adds.

If you want a game that isn't like D&D in any way, shape, or form, grab the original Cyberpunk. SR is going to look slightly like D&D because of all the magic in the world. While it doesn't work the same way, it has a lot of the same results.

Besides, in D&D, how many people actually ever get to play a dragon? None, as far as I'm concerned.
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Canid13
post Oct 4 2004, 01:08 PM
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Snowraven, the DotSW entry for drakes implies that the drake bonuses are racial and don't stack. I guess it's up to a GM how he wants to play this.
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