Ultrasound and Imp.Invisibility, How much +tn i get? Options

[Botch]

I read through the threads mentioned above and had a little niggle.

Does the spellcaster have to maintain LOS to the subject to sustain the physical illusion spell effect? If not then there is no way that the spell could be providing invisibility by illusion only. How does the spellcaster maintain the illusion when they cannot see the background that forms the illusion of invisibility.

If phys. invisibility merely "paints" an illusion over the target of what is on the otherside, how does a spellcaster know what isn't in the visual field (ie. behind themselves)?

If the spellcaster cannot see beyond a door/wall that is covered bya p.invis. spell because he doesn't know what is there, then the spellcaster also cannot be invisible from the front as he cannot see behind himself.

[Moon-Hawk]

It's true.
In my opinion, physical invisibility should be a manipulation spell and just make the damn thing invisible.
Mana invisibility is mind affecting, so it should still be an illusion, in which case I think the observer should see what the observer's mind expects. Mostly just that they don't notice the invisible thing. There's a guy with a gun pointed at you five feet away, but you don't notice him. There's a door leading out of the burning building, but you don't notice it.

[Kagetenshi]

[Moon-Hawk]

Guys like us don't just fall out of the sky, y'know!
!!!!!
Beautiful naked big-****** women don't just fall out of the sky, y'know!
?

edited for content. :-)

[Botch]

[Moon-Hawk]

You should write for Star Trek.

[Botch]

Is that a compliment or studied insult?

[Eyeless Blond]

Probably both, but I'm leaning towards insult because I don't agree with you. :)

(Edit: On second thought, that might not be as funny as I thought. My apologies if you were offended, otherwise carry on.)

Whatever Physical or Mana Invisability do, I'd say they should definately have the same effect on any person viewing them, just for the sake of sanity. As for what you really see, well I'd just do something like this:

Mage: I cast Invisability on the door.
GM: Okay, the door is now invisable. You see right through it to the other side of the doorway.
Mage: Okay, what do I see?
GM: The other side of the doorway.
Mage: And... what's there?
GM: You can't see what's on the other side of the doorway; there's a door blocking you.

[Moon-Hawk]

More of an amused observation. Not an insult. I particularly liked the part about the local photonic field.

[Kagetenshi]

[Botch]

[bitrunner]

what's all this crap about photonic fields anyways...the invis spell is a mind affecting spell, not a vision affecting spell. it has nothing to do with bending light waves. if you cast invis on someone, and someone else shines a laser through where the person is standing, then the spell is going to do whatever necessary to trick that mind into believing that the laser continuously goes through the target as if it were not there.

only "common sense" has to work here - if someone shoots a gun or a laser through a one foot diameter circle, and you are standing in the way of that circle, you're going to get hit. no +8 to target number, nothing - you're standing right there, you're going to get hit, and you're going to take damage. As far as what the shooter sees, you still aren't there visually, but the sucking sound from your chest and that smell of fresh blood is sure to raise some suspicion. that's the problem with magic in the game, there is a lot left open to interpretation, and each scenario has to be treated differently.


as for the door thing, i like the simplicity of the door "disappearing" and becoming just wall. after all, if the door wasn't there, it would still be a wall. if you want to show the door is still there, but open, and show what is beyond it, then that's more complicated, and would probably require a (trid) phantasm spell.

YMMV

[Kagetenshi]

And knowledge of what is beyond, to create the phantasm.

~J

[Eyeless Blond]

Maybe, but the guards, who know the building well enough to know that there is supposed to be a door there, will immediately know something's wrong, and would at least be entitled to a bit of a TN bonus to the resistance test.

I'd go so far as to say what a person sees is colored by what they expect to see. The spell simply tells the person that the door isn't there; the target's mind fills in the details. So a random passer-by who's never seen this area before might simply see a wall where tte door should be. But a guard would see what he expects to see with no door: an open archway and the room beyond.

The point is, since different people will expect different things, they may well *see* different things. The invisability spell doesn't send an image, after all; that would be impossible as it would require the spell to make an intelligent decision as to what the target sees. What happens is that the spell just tells the person/observer that there is nothing there, and lets the observer fill in the details.The human brain already does this quite unconsciously for other things. Every human being has a small blind spot that you never really notice, that's actually quite big. The brain interpolates around it, though, so you don't notice anything's wrong. I imagine this is similar to how the invisability spell works.

[Kagetenshi]

[Necro Tech]

[Edit] Damn, didn't read the second page. [Edit]

This post has been edited by Necro Tech: Oct 1 2004, 10:54 PM

[Kanada Ten]

A bare table.
On the table you place a box.
Inside the box you place a muffin.
You cast invisibility on the box.
Only the bare table is seen.
You reach in the box and pull out the muffin.
You can see the muffin out of the box.
You place a coin in the box.
Only the bare table is seen.

A bare table.
On the tabel you place a box.
Inside the box you place a muffin.
You have a lid for the box
You cast invisibility on the lid.
You place the lid on the box.
You can see the muffin, the box, and the table.

An empty room.
Inside the room you place a dwarf.
You have a door.
You cast invisibility on the door.
You can see the room and dwarf.

Invisibility doesn't require you to know what is there. It knows what is there. It replaces the image of what you made invisible with the image of what one would see if the invisible object was not there.

The target of an invisibility spell is the observer of the invisible subject.

A voluntary invisibility spell would work like the entertainment spell: only those wishing not to see it will not see it.

[Edward]

If you have the targets mind fill in the details then what will be reco0rded on a cheep video camera when I cast improved invisibility on a door.

When the image is shown the spell will not be active and thus cannot affect the viewers minds and the camera doesn’t have a mind to fill in the gaps.

As to the blind spot on the human retina, the eye actually is in constant motion to move the blind spot so eth mind has enough data to properly create a seamless image.

Perhaps I should have known better than to ask this question.

Edward

[Kanada Ten]

You can see what is on the other side of the door: the invisibility spell fills in the details, it 'sees' the other side of the door and projects an image of it, but it is a false image, you can not cast a spell at something seen inside, (except elemental manipulations).