Sniping and Surprise Options

[Krieger]

I think it pretty much goes without saying that an experienced sniper can be one of the most lethal components of the game. I'd just like to clarify something.

Here's my train of thought:
A sniper set up several hundred meters from his target will not provoke a surprise round, since the act of shooting a single bullet won't be heard or seen by the target. The only way to have a chance of dodging or taking cover from a shot like this lies in magic. Combat sense is ruled out, since all it does is allow you to add Combat Pool dice to your Reaction test, which you won't be making anyway. That leaves Sixth Sense, which says "Adepts with sixth sense possess the ability to immediately sense personal danger and leap into action with startling suddenness." (p. 151, MITS). Now, since I'm sure that a sniper bullet heading for his left ear is considered "personal danger", this would allow our poor target to make a Reaction test to react to being shot.

Am I on the right track here, or am I just spouting nonsense?

[Tanka]

It does make sense. Another thing that might work is something like Detect (Bullet) on a wide area, thus alerting the person it's centered on to notice it and react by a sudden leap/drop/whatever.

[toturi]

[Voran]

Yeah it seems the only real way to protect versus snipers in the game is through magic. Overlapping magical shields, spirits and adepts. I forget what it was called exactly, but I think its in the 2nd ed Corporate Security Guide/handbook/whatever the hell it was called. It had security adepts who were focused towards protecting others, they had some adept powers that gave bonuses to their target.

[DrJest]

From my admittedly out of date point of view:

As a GM I would definitely allow a physad's Sixth Sense to warn against a sniper attack. Yes, he's a long way away, but (and here I get really fragging mystical) his intent is right in the adept's face, a mental connection that links them together. And yes, that's just a pseudo mystical mumbo jumbo excuse to give a character some warning ;)

Taking another tack, since the PC's are the "heroes" of the story, I use a time-honoured cinematic technique of the inadvertent giveaway, letting the characters make a Perception (6) test to spot some oddity (was that the flash of sunlight on a reflective surface? Is that someone up on the roof of that building?)

And last but not least, there's that old classic of "heroes are lucky fraggers". To simulate that, I'd make a Karma Pool test against a target number based on how good the sniper is (off thetop of my head, low-grade hitman, 5; pro merc, 8; Blackwing, 12) for the PC to coincidentally pause when not expected, bend down to pick something up, or whatever.

One technique my old original character (you know... the one that nobody lets me play anymore because he earned 248 Karma over his career and he's just too damn hard compared to everyone else :( ) uses is the classic anchored Detect Bullet/Bullet Barrier combo. Supplementary to that, and because I am just that paraniod, I usually have a really drek-for-Force watcher tailing me when I'm expecting trouble to warn me if someone is going after my gear astrally.

[Jr. Woodchuck]

[Artemus]

[Derek]

Also, here is something you might not want to think about. Most gamers are not combat vets, but the characters might be. In fact, most characters have some experience with combat. What does this mean?

Well, you (you personally, not your character) when walking down the street might be scanning places for possible sniper positions, looking for dangerous areas, and generally walking in such a way as to make yourself a "hard target" On the other hand, people with experience in combat, or good training, do exactly such a thing. Trust me, I know, having been shot at before.

So, while you might not be describing your character doing such things, he probably is, and thats where the combat pool falls in. That combat pool is the game mechanic that descibes the scanning for danger areas and generally keeping yourself safe.

So, give the characters the benefit of the doubt, and let them use some of their combat pool when being shot at by a sniper. Explain it as I described above. If, of course, the player specifically states that he is walking down the middle of the street focused directly ahead, than don't give him any benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, do.

It's this aspect, the benefit of the doubt, that allows us to role-play. That is, play roles that we might not be able to in real life. For example, if someone is playing a mage, and he doesn't describe exactly what hand motions he uses to cast a spell (since the player in real life probably doesn't know how to cast a spell), you don't penalize him. Likewise, if a desk bound never-seen an angry look much less a shot fired in anger person is playing a combat hardened vet, you won't expect the player to know everything there is know about combat.

Derek

[Wounded Ronin]

Prolonged exposure to .30-.06 rounds may be hazardous to your health.



I figure that if a given character is targeted by a sniper, it's kind of cheesy to let them use their full pool to make a dodge test. I'd just leave 'em to karma the body test or else let them HOG. Once characters start to get too much karma it's nice to let them waste some of it resisting a .30-.06 round in the buttocks so things can actually get dramatic instead of predetermined later.

But then again, there have hardly ever been snipers in my campaigns. Specifically because it's one of those things that realistically you can't do much about, and as such it's less fun for the purpose of a game. I figure it is potentially a good way to help "eat" excess karma pool.

[Voran]

Ooh. Another Hawai based person! Heh, anyway, I agree with Derek's sentiment. Its important not to overlook that pretty much always your characters are going to be more skilled than your players. As a real person, I know pretty much nothing about combat, tactics, firearms, whatever. Its important to build situations that characters can get out of, and doesn't penalize a player for not having a certain type of real world experience.

Snipers are best used a plot devices, NPC whacks another NPC triggering a story. Cause any semiskilled hitman NPC versus a PC is pretty much going to win a surprise shot every time, unless there is magic involved.

[toturi]

There is a reason why snipers are so deadly. If snipers feature prominently in your game, expect your players to build their PCs to be able to "resist" sniper attempts.

[Crusher Bob]

A sniper is not some magical one hit wonder. To sucessfuly hit a specific target, you have to know where there target will be at a specific time. You then need a place that provides a good shot angle. If they will not be at a 'fixed' location (like giving a speach behind a podium) you need a place that provides a variety of good angles. (This is harder than it seems). Then you have to be able to hit the target once they are there. (Really helps if you have a spotter or to to talk to you, so that know what the target is going.

Notice that your target is smart he will tend to avoid 'exposed' areas that have a lot of potential shot angles, or at least minimize his exposure by walking quickly, or similar. Also, if the area is know ahead of time, you can analyze where the likely locations for a sniper to be are, and then be ready to supress them. If going to the meet in an exposed location, see if you can get a map of the area. Plot likely sniper locations as artillery target reference points. leave your friendly neighborhood clip fed auto-mortar behind. Get sniper fire? Use you spatial recognizer cyber ears, or just acarreid version to pinpoint his position ang give him 6 rounds of 60mm HE. Sure it dosen't help the first guy, but it sure helps all the rest of the team. If you don't have an auto mortar, you can leave set up your own 'counter sniper' and have him scan the likely locations...

But that only applies when going to the meet or similar, how do you prevent yourself from being taken out while going to the grocery store?
Don't be predicatble.
If you goto the store every tuesday at 6pm then the sniper has to only be on station 5 minutes before you get there and then leave. If you randomize your schedule as much as possible, then the sniper has to 'hang around' a lot more increasing his risk of detection. (Be extra careful about part of your schedule that are almost fixed, like say, picking up the kids from school). Where possible, use multiple routes and choose one randomly just before you go.
Move fast.
It's much harder to hit a mobile target, don't loiter.
Employ telltales and couter surveillance
Someone needs to watch you for a while to know your schedule, think of yourself as a target and find the places someone watching you would be likely to hang out. Bribe the 7-11 clerks, leave hidden cameras, (and simlar stuff). Rent out the apartment that would be the perfect place to shoot you from yourself. rig up a fake sin for the 'renter' they are in another country (or something). Rig the place with discrete electornic security. If ye sniper breaks in and plans to shoot you, your pokect secretary rings and asks: intrusion detected detonate mines in apartment kill-box (Y/N)?

The real defense against the sniper is not resiting the first bullet, but trying to minimise the chances of the first bullet ever being fired. Notice that almost all assinated heads of state were done at very close range, it's usually much easier to get close to someone and shoot them with a pistol that it is to shoot them from a long way away.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Crusher Bob has a lot of good points. Successful sniping is not that easy. If a character cannot be found, it's damn hard to shoot him. Knowing when and where is probably the toughest bit. Once the sniper has that, you're pretty screwed, realistically. If you've got a place and a time (with a 6 hour margin of error), and the location is not thoroughly inspected beforehand by people friendly to the mark or guarded heavily, you have to be pretty sucky compared to your mark not to succeed.

Heads of state are more difficult because they've got massive safety detachments and can indiscreetly scout the neighborhood well in advance of going there. They've always got a hundred pairs of eyes nearby checking out the area, and as many guns to wield against would-be snipers. They've also got a massive intelligence organization trying to find out about the threats before they bring the fight to the VIP. Generally speaking shadowrunners don't have any of that, only their shadowy lifestyle.

For those who believe PCs should get their Combat Pool when they're sniped because they're used to that sort of threat: Be sure to give that to NPCs with similar mindsets. Using this ruling, you should also ignore the "A character cannot use Combat Pool against attacks by someone who has surprised him" for such characters. And if your players whine about NPCs doing Neo-dodges when a PC opens up at them with a FA shotgun from behind a corner, remind them of the alternative.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 4 2004, 11:32 AM

[nezumi]

While Derek has a good point, it seems to me like that should result in a penalty to the sniper, not a bonus to the target. Increase cover modifiers, don't let the sniper get a full 3 turns to aim, things like that. Turn that TN of 3 attack into a TN of 5. That should give your PCs at least a decent chance of surviving an attack, on top of all the other issues people are bringing up (it's hard to know where a person will be when, etc.)

[Derek]

[twofalls]

Excellent thread. I'm very glad to see some folks taking the sides of the PC's with regards to this topic. Trying to make the game feel like a real situation should take second place to fun. Having your character shot out from under you by a sniper isn't fun. Shadowrun = game after all.

Again, great thread. :)

[Krieger]

It really doesn't matter if the players are combat hardened military vets who have been under fire from more people than live their entire neighborhood at once, they still won't be able to see or hear a bullet coming from even 100m away when the person on the other end is also said military vet, trained not to be seen or heard. While I realize this isn't necessarily an easy thing to pull off for the sniper himself, as Crusher pointed out so well, I just can't see a "combat ready" character getting out of a situation like that without relying on Magic or constant paranoid surveillence within a 1 km radius of themselves at all times. IMO, there really is no excuse to give said character any dodge at all unless they do.

If you think this is too deadly (which it is - it's "one shot one kill" for a reason), Bob provided many solutions to the problem that will at least make it harder to be hit, and the Magic proposed earlier will also help. As a GM, I would never throw an all-out sniper at a team unless I knew they could handle it.

Also, to further illustrate Austere Emancipator's point, I'll throw out that for Presidential security, specifically, they send out their own team of Secret Service snipers a day or two beforehand to check out the area where the President will be. They spend an entire day detailing the best locations for a sniper, lines of sight, the whole kit-'n-kaboodle. Then, on the day the President is actually present, they set up their own snipers to cover the area. If you plan on lobbing a couple bullets at the President, you damn well better be able to hide, and you damn well better have one hell of an escape plan.

...hello Mr. Ashcroft. :D

[mfb]

krieger, you can't see a bullet coming from five meters away. what you're dodging is intent. and if you suspect there's a sniper in the area, you can attempt to dodge that intent without ever knowing where he is.

[Krieger]

But what I'm saying is that even if you know for a fact that a sniper is in the area, unless you have some mystical force working for you, you can't know when or where the bullet is coming from, or even that is is coming until it hits you or the trash can next to you, and therefore can't dodge it. If you don't see or hear the bullet leave the gun, you really have no chance of dodging. It's hard enough to dodge a bullet that you see coming. The way I've always rationalized dodging in SR is that you see someone's finger tighten on the trigger or their mouth tighten in anticipation (enter "intent") and jump to one side, because once they pull that trigger that bullet will be across the room before you can finish blinking, or in most cases in a nice fleshy pillow. If you can't see them, you can't infer intent.

Granted, I've never had any kind of real life experience with any of this, so if anyone can add some insight there, please do.

[Bane]

Edit: I guess I'm a slow typer. the following was meant to come after mfb's post.
True, if you want to take it literally. I think what he meant was that you can't see intent, as you put it, from 500m away. It's pretty easy to judge what will happen when that ganger is pointing his gun at you, and thus pretty easy to dodge. The same is not true for someone pointing a gun at you from really far away, and from a place that is hidden from view.

Now, I'm not saying that a veteran runner can't take precautions -- of course he can. If he does, it's going to be that much harder for the sniper to shoot him. But a character cannot take the same precautions he takes when facing someone with a gun pointed at him 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, when no apparent threat is visible. Just because there's the possibility of getting shot doesn't mean he knows when it will happen, or from what direction. And if he doesn't know that, I think it'd be pretty hard to dodge.

[Derek]

[mfb]

krieger, bullets move too fast for you to see. and most bullets move faster than the speed of sound, which means that by the time you hear the sound of the gunshot, you've already been hit or missed by the bullet. it is impossible to dodge a bullet that has already been fired--you can't even sense it.

and, yeah, if you're not expecting a sniper, you're not going to be able to make him miss you. if you are expecting a sniper, however, or you have reason to believe you might run into one, you should be able to dodge, even if you can't see him.

[Bane]

Okay, before this goes further I think a clarification needs to be made. There is definitely a difference between dodging intent and dodging a bullet. In fact, it's much like the difference between sexual abstinence and condom use. Bear with me.

You can try to avoid an event all you want. In the case of avoiding a sniper's bullet, things like limiting your exposure to outdoor environments and open spaces, walking quickly, etc., these things all make it harder for the sniper to act on his intent. Game mechanics-wise, things like forcing the sniper to be closer than he originally planned, increasing target numbers, getting less rounds to aim, etc.

However, when the time comes for an event to actually happen, if that bullet is heading towards you it means your preventive measures have failed. when this happens, the best thing the character can do is slap on some armor and take it like a man. :D

I realize there is a difference between what a player would do and what a character would do. The GM can take this into account any way he chooses -- I listed a few options earlier in this post. The fact remains that intent and a bullet are two very different things.

[Krieger]

[BitBasher]