Problems with magic, Problems with magic Options

[SoulKage]

Hi all! I've always loved the Shadowrun universe but I've hit several problems with magic. I'm new to GMing (heck, playing the game) and this is what happened. After getting the melee and ranged rules down I studied magic and explained the rules to my friends. One friend found that if he took certain combinations of sustaining foci and spells, he could become improved invis, +6/6 armor, +4d6 initiative, +X to any stat he wanted, and flying forever...

Needless to say this just broke the game instantly and I fought for 3 hours tying to un-break it and I gave up. I'm hoping I'm missing some rules or something because magic just seems WAY too powerful, like as in you would need about 10 kilos of High explosive compound XI to ensure his death.. Anything short of that just tickles him.

I also have many more questions about Shadowrun and am hoping I can get some links to sites for further clarification on the rules. Thanks all!!

[RedmondLarry]

To start with, use Focus Addiction (Magic in the Shadows page 45). This rule is exactly designed for the problem you are observing. With this rule, a magician risks magic loss if he uses too many foci at once. A power focus does NOT increase the Magic Attribute, so it doesn't help you get around the Focus Addiction rule.

Double-check the force and number of successes for his spells that raise attributes.

Lone Star does have magicians on occasional patrol, or on their way to a crime scene, who WILL notice if a magician has powerful magic. It takes but a moment to stop and ask to see the permit for that powerful magic. (All spells with Force higher than 2 require a permit.)

Initiation (in Magic in the Shadows) allows a character to learn 'Masking', which can help a character hide his Foci and active spells. But only as many Force points of these as the magician has in Grades of initiation.

Powerful corporations and powerful people pay for protection against invisible flying magicians. Wards, watcher and spirit patrols, astral magicians, FAB I and II, biofiber, etc.

Active foci can be attacked from astral space by magicians, mana spells, and spirits.

There are places in the barrens where using 100,000 nuyen worth of foci will get you killed for the value of those foci. Have you ever seen an Adept with Astral Perception firing a rifle at an Invisible Magician?

[Fortune]

[tjn]

SoulKage, either you missed something, or the force of the spells are extremely low as the power gamer inside me tells me that it's not possible to gather that much power as a starting character. Somewhere, somehow, there is a glaring weakness if that's a realitively starting character.

Firstly, how did the mage aquire that much karma/spell points to bond so many foci? Also, make sure he is not playing mix and match with his Sustaining Foci; each Sustaining Foci is keyed to a specific spell. Also, Sustaining Foci can only hold up to a force of spell equal to it's own force, make sure you've not missed that.

Secondly, take a look at the force of the spells he's casting, many are limited in some fashion by the force of the spells themselves (Inc Reflex is the only glaring exception that comes to mind). If he has a bunch of low force spells and the complementary low force foci, that's okay, but make sure he understands he shouldn't expect miraculous effects, or even the effects he would have gotten at a force of 6.

As this is an ooc problem, solving it icly isn't the way to go IMO. However if everything is perfectly legit, it may be you aren't used to some of the IC problems that come with being Awakened. Part of the power balance of an Awakened comes from the numerous pitfalls that inhabit their lives (the other part is the huge karma sinks). OurTeam and Fortune supplied a few of them (wards especially are the bane of the Awakened), here's two more ideas.

I want you to keep in mind background counts. Personally, in my Seattle, it is a rare event in which there isn't at least a count of 1. That +1 TN doesn't seem like much, but since it applies to damn near every single magical roll, it adds up. And heaven forbid if there's a higher count; a 3 or 4 (usually reserved for special reasons) can neuter the power of a starting mage.

And if you don't have Threats 2, at least try to find someone else's to read. In addition to having a bunch of cool ideas to steal, they have Imps. Imps are a foci abuser's worst nightmare: they steal control of the focus itself from the mage.

In the end, magic doesn't break the unduly break the game without a cause, and outside of extremely high karma games (hundreds of spent Karma), magic is ultimately balanced. For as many paths to power magic provides, it also provides that many pitfalls.

[Chasgul III]

Remember that the Increase Atribute spell is actually Attribute specific. That means that you have to learn Increase Intelligence at force 6, then Increase Strength at force 6, and so on - don't let the players get away with telling you that Increase attribute is a general spell that they can learn once and "Presto - I'm Harlequin's long lost elder brother, honest..."

[Zenmaxer]

what you SHOULD watch out for is spells that are learned as exclusive or fetished... because technically you can learn them free at force 1 and 2 respectively.

[Fortune]

[Zenmaxer]

actually fortune, I've been thinking about that, and I've really come to believe that it's intentional, designed to allow your mage some versatility, without sacrificing overall punch.

[Fortune]

The only one that really bugs me is Increase Reflexes. If it was based on Force (as it is in my games) it would be fine. I can deal with things like Force 1 Mindlink, Camo, Invisibility, Oxygenate, etc.

[Zenmaxer]

actually the one that bothers me is physical camo. that can really cause some havoc...
especially in a sustaining focus built into the handle of your gun....at a legal force 2.

[Glyph]

Looking at this character:

First of all, foci, as has been stated, have to be deactivated to pass through wards. Now, you could take your foci through a ward if they were powerful enough, but even if you bring the ward down, you have still alerted the mage who created the ward. In other words, you have set off the alarm. Also, remember that active foci can be attacked astrally, and that having more than (Magic x 2) in Force active at once can lead to foci addiction. Remember as well - he needs to spend spell points to bond all of these foci!

Improved invisibility is a resisted spell, meaning that someone who successfully resists the spell can see the invisible person. Secondly, it doesn't affect smell, sound, etc. Thirdly, it is a fairly common spell, and defences will be in place to deal with it. Dual-natured beings can see the character just fine, since invisibility doesn't work against astral sight. Also, guards get suspicious when doors open by themselves, etc.

Armor makes the character glow. It is like creating a neon sign saying "Geek me! I'm a mage!" You might justifiably rule that invisibility cannot mask the glow, since it it a light source. +6/+6 may seem like an awful lot of armor, but automatic fire can be pretty powerful. You don't need any contrived attacks, either - any punk ganger on the street could have a cheap, auto-fire capable, submachine gun. The biggest thing to remember is that the armor spell doesn't create hardened armor, so the best it can do is to lower the effective Power of an attack to 2. So, someone with a 4L holdout pistol could still maim the character if he got good enough rolls.

The initiative boost is not that impressive. +3d6, the highest you can go, only makes you about the same as a street samurai with Wired Reflexes: 2. And most decent sammies will be far above that.

Increase Attribute takes a lot of successes (2 per one point increase), and it uses the base Attribute as a TN - so raising a Willpower that is already 6 any higher will take some decent rolls.

Levitate is a useful spell, but remember that if an enemy mage sees him hovering 100 feet above, then successfully dispelling the spell or taking out the focus will make the character go SPLAT!


One thing to keep in mind about the basic rules is that they are geared towards creating professional criminals, hardened pros who have been doing this for awhile and are about to break into the big time. So starting characters can be tough (although SR combat is also pretty lethal, so they are not invincible by any means). The system that created this character can also be used to create brutally effective street samurai and adepts.

[Kagetenshi]

That would be an interesting effect of invis+Armor. A glow from no apparent source.

~J

[toturi]

Imps.

[Derek]

Or, you can talk to the player in question, explain to him that his use of the rules is causing problems within the game and ask him to kindly not try and abuse the rules to make his character the most powerful 10 times over. If he says no, tell him to not bother showing up for the next game session.

Derek

[heliocentric]

I had a similar problem a few years ago with one of my players. He had made a bet with someone outside of my game he could make a standard mage better at HtH than an adept.

He won the bet.

I ruled that the sheer amount of mana shooting through his body lit him up like a beacon on the astral, attracting all manner of magical beasties.

It just so happened my antagonists for this campaign were an organized crime syndicate suffering from HMHVV. Hee hee hee...

[Glyph]

It is always better to talk to the player, first. For one thing, he may not even know there is a "problem", and may be happy to tone down his character if that will make it easier for you. After all, he's (as far as I know) not breaking any rules, or even doing any obnoxious meta-gaming or loophole-finding. He's simply picking a mix of foci to make himself effective in a number of roles.

It's easy enough for a GM arbitrarily kill a PC, but that's being unfair to the player, and is not usually effective at causing the changes you want. It will either make the player leave in disgust, or convince him that his next character needs to be even more munchkin, since the first one obviously wasn't tough enough.

[Sandoval Smith]

How is he getting those stat boosts so high? In past threads where munchins have claimed to have done those and maxed the success in the downtime, I have scene response that ran the line of 'divide the downtime into 3 second turns and let him roll that many times.'

[Eyeless Blond]

[Fortune]

While talking to the player is pretty much a given, I still believe that the GM should know the system at least as well as his players. Sit down with the player in question and go through the entire magic rules with him. This isn't a bad thing to do with all the players, and something I do each and every time one of my players goes through chargen. It not only familiarizes the GM (and the player, if necessary) with the rules, but it gives the GM an intimate view into the character and his motivations...moreso than what can come across in a written background.

[Zenmaxer]

Ultimately I'm with Glyph. A little power is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's no fun to be forced to rob department stores or shake down ramen shops. Just build the resistance to deal with the char.

[Sandoval Smith]

What kind of resistance could you have to a mage like that, that wouldn't also wipe out the rest of the team? Seriously, I think both the player and the GM (the latter in particular) need to review, well, let's be thorough and say the magic section in the BBB, Compaion, and MitS for good measure. The GM is obviously not prepared to handle what this player is doing, and I think the player, knowing or not, is breaking some important rules about magic use.

[Kagetenshi]

Astral threats.

~J

[Zenmaxer]

actually, you could just use the silly essence kitten from TSS, though it's not canon.
at least the feline would finally see some use.

[Kagetenshi]

It already had use: being cute and fuzzy.

~J

[BitBasher]