 Help, derailed plot!, D&D broke it, can you fix it. |
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 Oct 5 2004, 01:09 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909  |
Im dreading this happening in one of my games.
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Oct 5 2004, 02:11 AM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Rainbow 6 teaches you that the guy who was lying in wait behind cover gets to shoot you dead first. It discourages a Rambo approach to combat since the whole point of the game is to try and set things up like strategic clockwork. Combat in SR would work better if you tried the clockwork approach than if you tried the Rambo approach. |
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Oct 5 2004, 03:01 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
They really need a Rambo viedo game.
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Oct 5 2004, 03:37 AM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
Move the campaign to Europe.
Then they're fairly beyond the reach of all the people they upset and they can start their career over again. |
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Oct 5 2004, 11:51 AM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
Any player considers a fight they can't win unfair and will whine about it. Unless you're playing Legend of the Five Rings (in that great module where the best ending for your group was after killing (again) Iuchiban you reset all the traps and have to seal the entrance to his tomb, with your party on the inside). It looks like everything went pretty well, right up until the fire fight. Is this D&D's fault? Phhht, you're kidding, right? The fact that four are new to the system and it seems like this is their first time playing Shadowrun seems more of a factor. If you really want to blame previous game experince, blame the video gamers, since almost all situations in games are resolved either through combat or a conversation tree, which probably does not build up those SR problem solving skills. Do they know that the fixer and co are about to bust in? Start of by explaining what went wrong, discuss how you think this shoulg go, and that in the spirit of the effort they have put into their characters, you're giving them a second chance. Somone glances out a window, sees the fixer and buds arriving, and they've got thirty seconds to bail before all hell comes crashing down on them. Unless everything turns into the bloodbath from heck, the fixer can contact them a little bit later and speaking from his position of power over them, tell them that he understands that they panicked when everything came apart, and he's willing to let it more or less slide this once, but things in the Shadows work a certain way, and it was definetly NOT the way they did things. This would let you get the plot more or less back on track to the point where you can use your preplanned material again. I know that during my first few sessions of Shadowrun I made a few stupid mistakes, not because *gasp!* I bore the taint of the evil D&D, but simply because I, like four of your players wasn't familar with the nuances of the system. My GM went easy on me because nothing will turn off players more than a learning curve that is a vertical line straight up. I know if that each of my intial screw ups was followed by the messy death of my character, I would've given up on the game pretty fast. |
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Oct 5 2004, 12:54 PM
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#31
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
I find that D&D players are less likely to accept a no win but you can probably avoid a fight scenario than in SR. this comes partly from the relatively low lethality of D&D combat and the D&D XP system that suggests that such should not happen and the fact that sneaking past an opponent that could wipe the floor with you 8 ways to Sunday is usually very difficult as spot and listen usually scale directly with power level. SR perception tests don’t scale very much.
I do however concur that the CRPG industry has much to answer for in terms of hack and slash gaming. However I cant think of a way to put true role-playing into a CRPG Edward |
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Oct 5 2004, 01:58 PM
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#32
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Which will encourage them to make sure that next time they can penetrate the hardened armor. Arms race! ~J |
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Oct 5 2004, 02:20 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 20-September 04 Member No.: 6,682 |
I am suggesting that a game is just a game, and that the players are in it to have fun. Gms are there to help them have fun. This is not high drama unless you make it high drama, nor is it the end of the world to run a cinematic campaign. I have never appreciated the instant game overs present in so many campaigns and C-rpgs when you flub one of your objectives. They strike me as cope-outs on the part of the respective designers, a signature lack of imagination. Think of it as being a fixer, if you will. You cater to the clients, not the other way around. What you call "simple stupidity" is just another playstyle. |
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Oct 5 2004, 03:19 PM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
If the fixer feels that they've broken their contract with him, then he doesn't have to uphold his end of the brargain either, specificly the part of which implies that he won't tell the corps they're running from where they are.
Running from the corps could be a fun road trip, depending on how it is played. Have their former employeers send various shadowrunning teams after them, forcing them to continually move and keep a low profile. Have some weak opposition catch up to them a few times, but scale up the strength of the opposition each time. Make it clear to them that, if they don't dissappear completly they will eventually face a team that they have no chance against and that they'll be overwhealmed if they stay in one place for too long. |
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Oct 5 2004, 03:21 PM
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#35
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That doesn't work because logically the best-equipped teams will find them first.
~J |
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Oct 5 2004, 03:57 PM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
You are assuming that they hire a dozen teams of varying levels of competence at the same time. It is not unreasonable that the corps would hire cheap (inexperienced) runners first, then scale it up when those runners fail. Just make sure that they (the corps) don't end up spending more money on disposing of the runners than they lost, but those losses should include things like death compensation for sec guards and the like. |
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Oct 5 2004, 04:27 PM
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#37
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If they really want it done, they'll hire a good team. Lowest-bidder assassinations are not a good idea.
~J |
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Oct 5 2004, 04:30 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Ah, more replies, good. We have had a mini-session to test the waters of resolution. Currently the PCs have been gassed/narqed, returned to Ar Bugeila's base of operations and have had a stormy debriefing over the fiasco at the docks. The debriefing ended with Ar Bugeila glancing at his wristcomm, opening his briefcase and spilling a pile of thick A4 envelopes on the table each addressed to one of the team. Glancing quickly at his wristcomm, Ar Bugeila strides quickly from the room and closes the doors with a resolute click. The runners have yet to open the envelopes. I do have to blame D&D and SSI/Black Isle in particular for the fiasco. Unbeknownst to me the D&D'ers and SSI players hatched a plot to maximise experience points by eradicating the maximum amount of enemy possible. To make sure that I didn't get wind of this they kept their revised plan to themselves until the last minute. Can you see the flaw in their plan? They didn't at the time, no experience points for killing monsters in SR and PC fatalities are much, much easier. Cries of "kill 'em all" are not beneficial as we have spent more time developing the character backgrounds than on any previous game. The rewind option has gone out of the window as a democratic desision. There has been an OOC discussion with the experienced players about how this fiasco has tempered the playing environment. The verdict is that the fiasco was caused by a slight oversight and far too much wine comsumption for a new (to them) RPG system. In regards to slapping the runners about until they behave, this would have a major downer on fun at this point and would definately result in the loss of at least one player (a driver). The general feedback was positive, but unless this fiasco is fixed in a positive way in the next session or two we'll probably have to shelve the campaign for a couple of years as we/they have other campaigns in different systems to try. What I need to do to demonstrate the joy of stealth/sublty and the lethality/gritty realism of SR by using a mini-scenario. The runners are based in a converted abandoned waste reclamation plant in the middle of a sludgy swamp somewhere in continental europe. The runners do not know where exactly they are yet. Overwatch has big plans for them and commitments to their L2/3 contacts. I looking for something the results in them reducing their "kill enemy" mentality and 1 or 2 having to be stablized after a near death scare. I really don't want to lose them, but certainly they can suffer a little magic loss. The players are mechanic/rigger/physad, rigger/physad/decker/chauffeur, shaman/decker/tracker, wrestler/ex-athelete/physad, hermetic/cyber-surgeon, and physad/cybered sex-assasin. None of the runners have equipment worth mentioning as equipment was "on-loan" for the first run, but general run-of-the mill shadow equipment can be aquired from local resources. 2 NPCs are about, a troll merc (basically the one from BBB) and a minotaur hermetic/engineer/decker. ps.
They spent 3 days discussing whether/how to steal and liquidate the transport container by using the comms gear provided by the fixer to communicate between the team. This post has been edited by Botch: Oct 5 2004, 04:51 PM |
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Oct 5 2004, 04:31 PM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Pschah! When I first started playing shadowrun, I had a character die *every* session. Sometimes in the first 15 minutes. But *I* kept playing. It's been over 8 years of playing now but I never once whined about in the beginning having to design a whole new character every session.
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Oct 5 2004, 04:33 PM
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#40
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
What is Overwatch doing in Europe?
~J |
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Oct 5 2004, 04:37 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
This Overwatch was a character from our games in 1991 and so they might another Overwatch, but if he isn't in Europe what's the prob?
Oh, his name is really Ar Bugeila. This post has been edited by Botch: Oct 5 2004, 04:44 PM |
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Oct 5 2004, 04:38 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Did you spend 3 months developing the character? |
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Oct 5 2004, 04:40 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Have you read R:AS, Brainscan, or Threats2? |
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Oct 5 2004, 04:42 PM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
No, not 3 months. Maybe like 3 days in the beginning, especially since I wasn't familiar with the rules. That's pretty hardcore, though. Did the people in question spend 3 months making characters? |
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Oct 5 2004, 04:49 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Good point, but my players haven't. I'll put his name back to the non-english version.
Yep, each with its own background story from childhood to extraction. Shame to kill them all after 5 hours of game time, no? |
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Oct 5 2004, 05:05 PM
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#46
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ah, misinterpretation. I thought you’d said that it was a fixer for Overwatch.
~J |
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Oct 5 2004, 07:21 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, yes, but on the other hand, why spend 3 months making a character before the players even really understand how the game works? That seems to me like it would be asking for trouble because someone might make a whole elaborate character and then realize that's not even what they wanted to play with in the context of the game world and/or the rule set. In fact, that's sort of what happened now. The players made these enormously elaborate characters but because of their inexperience with the game world they could not make the characters behave appropriately. But instead of simply having the "realistic" thing happen to them, you're in this jam precisely because of the enormous amount of time that they spent on the characters. Come to think of it, I would say that as a rule of thumb, newcomers to Shadowrun should *not* make elaborate characters precisely because it's very easy to die suddenly if you are not familiar with the system. In fact, based on how you described the characters they sound much more complicated even in terms of game mechanics and rules balancing (i.e. "rigger/physad/decker/chauffeur") than anything I would ever seriously consider making. I mean, just running that character requires knowledge of decking, vehicle combat, and basic combat. That's 3 times as much rules that you need to be good at to play reasonably efficiently than you would need under "normal" circumstances with a one-specialty archetype. It seems like that would be very difficult for a new player to handle. *I* don't think I could personally handle that even though I've been playing for years. Well, no sense in worrying about things that have already happened. I wish you good luck in resolving it. I personally would have no idea how to solve this problem. It's a very difficult and delicate situation and I hope it turns out well for all involved. |
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Oct 5 2004, 09:39 PM
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#48
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
What you need is a slap upside the head to the characters that is enjoyable to the players. I assume you have explained to them the problem with there kill karma strategy. Perhaps an information gathering run where you take 2 minutes to describe the clamped legs and freeing conditions as there characters stake out a building for 36 hours. The fixer will feal the need to punish the characters, this need not carry over to the players. Also did you mention that they’re working for a magical organisation that will help them initiate. If so said organisation will likely delay such plans until they prove themselves.
If I take less than a week developing a character then the personality doesn’t jell properly. 3 months is a long time but I have done it. This applies to D&D as well as SR (part of why I don’t like low level D&D campaigns, the characters don’t take as long to build and thus don’t get s much personality.) As for complexity of characters starting characters should be relatively simple in eth mechanics. I did consider playing a physmage/decker/riger/reporter at some point but I intended to take months learning the mechanical interactions and building a personality. Also being a bit of a sadist. In general first characters should be single archetype, dual on the outside. Edward |
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Oct 6 2004, 01:31 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
The apparent complexity of the characters is because I listed their full roles/jobs. The more experienced players have the more complex characters, but in the case of the rigger/physad/decker/chauffeur, she has a VCR, enhanced atrib/senses, some computer skills and [I]used to be a chauffeur. The 3 months did include practising the basic rule set for each runner, but training doesn't really cover a combat situation.
The stake out is good idea Edward and I will send in a couple of incompetent bounty hunters who got lucky because of the dock fiasco. Thanks to most for their input. |
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