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> [SoA2064] Sota 64 Finally
Casper
post Oct 5 2004, 10:55 PM
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Well I just picked it up about an hour ago. I havn't been able to read anything out of it yet. But I will see what i can put together in a few hours after I get some other things out of the way.

How about anyone else? Find it yet?

And can we get a forum for it.

Zach
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JongWK
post Oct 5 2004, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (Casper)
Well I just picked it up about an hour ago. I havn't been able to read anything out of it yet. But I will see what i can put together in a few hours after I get some other things out of the way.

Cool. Hope to be hearing you bitching soon. ;)
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Bane
post Oct 6 2004, 01:21 AM
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Expect a SOTA:2064 forum when your address bar no longer says "forums-temp.dumpshock.com"
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Siege
post Oct 6 2004, 01:25 AM
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Some long overdue spook gear - although I think the briefcase rocket was a tad much.

The adept powers range from absolutely rocking to downright scary. So help me, I'm gonna make an adept with a -2 delusion: Batman.

A couple of new flaws, including the much bandied "Character Dossier" which isn't quite as bad as a "Police Record", but still beefy. Also "Incomplete Deprogramming" for all you Alias junkies.

Which leads me to the aliaschips - finally, p-fix chips have numbers and stuff. Let the fun begin. Although the number support is a little weak, it's more than has been printed before.

And you thought mages were nervous before - "magic cameras." The line that made me cringe - "captures astral signatures."

-Siege
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Tanka
post Oct 6 2004, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (Siege)
[...]And you thought mages were nervous before - "magic cameras." The line that made me cringe - "captures astral signatures."[...]

...

'Scuse me, but I thought it was pretty canon that magic and tech don't mix like that. Doesn't there have to be a person connected to the camera via Essence for it to even consider working?
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Kanada Ten
post Oct 6 2004, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE
'Scuse me, but I thought it was pretty canon that magic and tech don't mix like that. Doesn't there have to be a person connected to the camera via Essence for it to even consider working?

Makes you wonder if they have a biological component that scribes the image or something. Using biologicals to detect magic has been typical until now, so using partial or engineered critters seems like a logical step.
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Tanka
post Oct 6 2004, 01:44 AM
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Possibly, but it seems likely that it would need to be able to make the disctinction between "person" and "object," as some objects have auras or aura-equivalents. (Mainly foci, manifested spirits, et cetera.)
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Kanada Ten
post Oct 6 2004, 01:47 AM
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I would imagine it is a layer of dual natured cells, like an optic nerve, that simply translates astral impressions into some kind of photo-chemical reaction. It may even take astral perception to see what the 'image' looks like or to 'feel' the impressions.
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Edward
post Oct 6 2004, 01:51 AM
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I can conserve of several possible ways to build a camera that could detect astral objects.

The easiest would involve some form of astral detecting physically reactive compound or organism connected to a detector. I believe there was a fluresnt moss that did this.

A traditional camera with awakened film (ether traditional film roll or hooked to electric receptors for digital image) would be of limited utility without some form of awakened lenses.

Or they could find or create an awakened critter that could have a transducer installed and be trained to transfer what it sees threw the transducer (meaning that you get what it thinks it sees not what it is actually seeing). Cut away the unnecessary portions and put it in an elegant box.

Edward
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Eyeless Blond
post Oct 6 2004, 02:02 AM
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QUOTE (Edward @ Oct 5 2004, 08:51 PM)
A traditional camera with awakened film (ether traditional film roll or hooked to electric receptors for digital image) would be of limited utility without some form of awakened lenses.

Wouldn't regular glass work for this purpose? From that I've seen, whatever the astral equivalent of light is seems to refract in exactly the same manner as regular light does. (Edit:) I mean, line-of-sight works in the same manner, and stuff that's transparent in visual space is transparent in astral space too. Fiber optics affect LOS, so it would seem refraction works as well.(/Edit) You just need the awakened film or CCD-like device. Oh, and Aura Reading to interpret it, of course. :)
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Kanada Ten
post Oct 6 2004, 02:07 AM
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A second use for the Astral Window spell, hooray!
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Jason Farlander
post Oct 6 2004, 02:13 AM
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Umm... I dont think there is any canon indication that either fiberoptics nor binoculars have any effect on Astral perception. They both can generate physical LOS, but I do not believe it is mentioned anywhere that you can astrally percieve through a fiberoptic cable or binoculars (dont have books, cant check immediately, will do so when i get home unless someone else does first).
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mfb
post Oct 6 2004, 02:25 AM
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i went round and round about that with some other players, recently. i contended that since the astral senses section of SR3 say that you have your normal sense of sight, things like optical magnification should work just fine. they disagreed, saying that light doesn't even exist on the astral plane. i dunno.
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Wireknight
post Oct 6 2004, 02:26 AM
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Okay, so, care to give a list of the adept powers/metamagics? I'm going to pick up the book as soon as it's available here(where is "there" that you acquired it, anyhow), but I'm curious as to what's been done for(or to) adepts, as I play quite a few.
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Tanka
post Oct 6 2004, 02:27 AM
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Light is created from living things, so it does exist. (On the astral, that is.)

IIRC, anything you pay Essence for works properly with Astral Perception. (Not Projection, as you are no longer "home.")

Anything that is natural magnification works as well (so no electronic zooms for you magical snipers).
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Jason Farlander
post Oct 6 2004, 02:37 AM
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QUOTE (tanka)
Light is created from living things, so it does exist. (On the astral, that is.)

Thats not actually light at all though, "light" is just the closest approximation that can be given in language understandable to mundanes (such as all of us). It is a psychic sense that is not related to the eyes, in that blindness has no effect on it and dual-natured critters without eyes (like awakened jellyfish) can still utilize astral perception.

You don't run into a *whole* lot of problems if you rule that lenses and such affect astral perception, I just don't think it makes any sense at all to rule that it does.
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Bane
post Oct 6 2004, 02:38 AM
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Yes, I believe the book says that the astral plan is lit by the glow of auras and such, so you could argue that that light can be magnified.

I think FAB-I is the one that dies when an astral form passes through it and glows under an ultraviolet light. I don't think it's too big a stretch to extend a similar principle to film.
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SilverWolf_assas...
post Oct 6 2004, 02:45 AM
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Magic Camera's eh?
Start the damage control team off with a good ritual tracking.
Sounds like a regular Witch-Hunt.

As far as I can tell fiber optics by virtue of their lack of electronic reliance allow light refractions to create a line of sight for casting purposes (with modifiers). It is safe to say that with "magic camera's" in place that astral light (auras and such) operates in the same way as physical light.

With that line of logic in place I say, "Bring in the astral wood pyre and the fire elementals! We are having ourselves a BBQ."

Lep, illusionist extraordinaire
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mfb
post Oct 6 2004, 02:45 AM
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farlander, your proposal that the output generated by auras and interpreted as 'light' isn't actually light isn't supported by the books.
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Jason Farlander
post Oct 6 2004, 02:59 AM
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I dont even know how to begin to respond to that statement, mfb. That it isnt self evident to you baffles me.

However, while I do a little bit of research to back up my claim definitively, I ask that you provide a canon quote that indicates, unambiguously, that astral "light" is the same as physical light.
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FlakJacket
post Oct 6 2004, 03:00 AM
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Sod the debate, I want adept powers! Gimme! :D
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mfb
post Oct 6 2004, 03:13 AM
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bah. i do have a page number--first sentence under the Astral Senses section of SR3, page 173, where it says that your astral form has the normal senses of sight and hearing (the normal sense of sight involves the manipulation and measurement of light; anything else isn't normal). and, i'd like to point out that every passage but one talks about light as if it works the same on the astral as it does in the physical (for instance, on page 82 of MitS, under Astral Visibility, it states that the light level of the physical plane has no effect on astral visibility because of the light provided by the auras of the Earth and other living beings).

however, on page 104 of SOTA:63, under the Prometheus Fiberoptic Observation Network section (which begins on pg 103) it states in no uncertain terms that astral perception cannot be used through fiberoptics. fie, i am defeated. i'll get you next time, Gadget!
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Kanada Ten
post Oct 6 2004, 03:19 AM
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QUOTE
However, on page 104 of SOTA:63, under the Prometheus Fiberoptic Observation Network section (which begins on pg 103) it states in no uncertain terms that astral perception cannot be used through fiberoptics.

Does this imply mirrors no longer reflect in Astral Space as well?
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Jason Farlander
post Oct 6 2004, 03:22 AM
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I notice that you have admitted defeat, and SOTA63 was the next book I was going to check for exactly that device - but I'll go ahead and post the quotes I accumulated from SR3 so the time it took to assemble them wasnt entirely wasted.

A slew of quotes that indicate that astral "light" is not analogous to physical light:

"Astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense." SR3 171

"blind magicians can see perfectly well on the astral." SR3 173

"physical light level does not affect visual perception on the astral." SR3 173

"Written information and symbols carry their emotional intent rather than their informational intent... you could scan a sheet of paper and get feelings of love and longing from it, but you can't read it to see that it's a love letter." SR3 173 [since when does light reflect off of emotional intent???]

"All astral forms have the ability to manifest, to make themselves visible and audible to beings in the physical world through an act of will. The astral form appears as a ghostly image to all viewers on the physical plane.... A manifestation is entirely psychic. Machines cannot percieve it in any way; cameras do not see it, microphones do not hear it, and so forth. For characters with cybereyes, the image is in their minds, so they can see the manifestation despite their cyber." [emphases mine. if the astral form is actually producing real light, why cant machines see it? why is it described as being in the viewers' minds? why are they using the terms "image," "visible" and "audible" to describe something that is neither really actual light or sound?]

But yeah... as long as I have Penny and her trusty dog Brain over here to help me out of these tricky situations, I will always triumph!

This post has been edited by Jason Farlander: Oct 6 2004, 03:26 AM
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SilverWolf_assas...
post Oct 6 2004, 03:43 AM
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I am to understand that the Magic Camera, or at least the idea of it functioning as a normal camera, is contrary to actual game mechanics. Either it works on a completely different function then I imagine it or perhaps this explains it.

Page 19 of Harlequins Back
"Yes, this does mean that a character's world view shapes how magic works for him in the Shadowrun Universe."

Those crazy scientists.

Hany, Pirate of the mega-corporate waters.
"Giving the Middle East a bad name."
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