IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Manaball, Valid targets for mana spells
Brazila
post Oct 6 2004, 09:51 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 19-March 03
From: Central IL
Member No.: 4,278



I was discussing this point with another player in my game and thought it would make an interesting post. ...
If a mage were astrally perceiving and cast a manaball at an opponent, and the target had active foci/spells, then they would all be valid targets for the spell. i think everyone would agree with that call, but I have never actually seen a GM do that in a game. I don't think the players or GM thought about the foci they had on and only living targets had to resist. I was just wondering if this has ever happened in anyone else's games, and if they made the foci/spells resist too?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post Oct 6 2004, 09:54 PM
Post #2


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



Mana spells only effect living targets though. I don't think it would have any effect.

I already asked about blowing up people's foci once before and got run outta town. :eek:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RedmondLarry
post Oct 6 2004, 10:36 PM
Post #3


Senior GM
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,406
Joined: 12-April 03
From: Redmond, WA
Member No.: 4,442



One way to destroy a focus with magic is to hit it with a Mana spell doing Physical (not Stun damage) on either the astral or physical plane.
QUOTE (Astral Objects @ SR3 p. 176)
SR3 p. 176, Astral Objects, first paragraph:
Astral Objects can only be affected by physical damage

SR3 p. 176, Astral Objects, last paragraph:
If an astral object is targeted with a mana spell, either on the astral or physical plane, it resists using Force for the Damage Resistance Test. The creator of the barrier or the bonder of the focus may add Spell Defense dice to help defend it, no matter where he is. If the object takes Deadly damage, it is destroyed. Otherwise, each level of damage (L, M, S) reduces the Force by one, which the object recovers in one Combat Turn as long as it suffers no further damage.

I believe any active focus is an astral object, but if Masked successfully it can't be targeted.

It is so easy for a magician to hide most foci under clothing, such that you'd have to be astral and passing through the clothing to see them, that I have never made a focus roll to resist damage. I guess I should start making Weapon Foci roll.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cochise
post Oct 6 2004, 10:52 PM
Post #4


Mr. Quote-function
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,312
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376



QUOTE (Brazila)
If a mage were astrally perceiving and cast a manaball at an opponent, and the target had active foci/spells, then they would all be valid targets for the spell.

But only if that astrally perceiving mage can actually see the astral bodies of those active foci ... If they happen to be hidden under clothes, one of the requirements for targeting spells ("seeing the target") is not fulfilled ...

QUOTE
i think everyone would agree with that call, but I have never actually seen a GM do that in a game.  I don't think the players or GM thought about the foci they had on and only living targets had to resist.  I was just wondering if this has ever happened in anyone else's games, and if they made the foci/spells resist too?


As OurTeam already pointed out:
It's possible to do spell defense for the foci, since the requirement to do so is only to share the same plane with the target (the foci), having them within range and having dice allocated to do so ...

Additionally there can be an argument about how you have to treat that active foci against a spell on the astral. An active focus is an astral object on the astral plane. And astral objects do have slightly different rules when it comes to attacks being made against them ...

[edit] Should have read more thoroughly ... OurTeam has even qouted the relevant part of astral object rules[/edit]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jason Farlander
post Oct 6 2004, 11:01 PM
Post #5


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,049
Joined: 24-March 03
Member No.: 4,323



Right... so, clothing conceals the auras of foci, but not of the people wearing them? What makes the auras of foci different from that of anything else, such that draping cloth over them is effective protection from spells, when doing so doesn't afford that protection to anything else? (/me doesn't buy it)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Oct 6 2004, 11:04 PM
Post #6


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



You can't target something just because you can see part of its aura.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jason Farlander
post Oct 6 2004, 11:11 PM
Post #7


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,049
Joined: 24-March 03
Member No.: 4,323



Immaterial. Regardless of "how far the aura radiates past the clothing" or "how much of the aura do you see" or any other such undefined arbitrary qualities, it is simply true that draping a blanket over a (meta)human does not protect that (meta)human from spells cast from either the astral or physical plane. Why should doing the exact same thing to a focus actually end up protecting the focus from targeting?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brazila
post Oct 6 2004, 11:17 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 19-March 03
From: Central IL
Member No.: 4,278



I think this is going into a whole other argument, that has been had a thousand times here. My point was just that foci that can be seen would be valid targets for the spell, and that I have never seen that come into play. You can argue the whole valid target/not valid target because it is under my shirt point till your blue in the dice, but allowing that could create such cheese and unbalance, I for one will say no way. Other wise, everyone will be running around in full body ninja outfits to hide their auras from spell targeting....and as funny as that could be it would get really old reallly quick.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Oct 6 2004, 11:18 PM
Post #9


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



QUOTE
Immaterial. Regardless of "how far the aura radiates past the clothing" or "how much of the aura do you see" or any other such undefined arbitrary qualities, it is simply true that draping a blanket over a (meta)human does not protect that (meta)human from spells cast from either the astral or physical plane.

It doesn't? We're on sketchy ground here, but hiding behind a curtain protects a person from LOS, a blanket might fall into the personal domain like military armor, but both of those are thin ice even now.

QUOTE
Why should doing the exact same thing to a focus actually end up protecting the focus from targeting?

Define LOS.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fygg Nuuton
post Oct 6 2004, 11:20 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 897
Joined: 26-February 02
From: TIME OUT
Member No.: 1,989



LOS is you can physically see them (on the physical plane)

if you see them through glass or fiber optics it counts, because you see them enough to know they are there.

if they are under a blanket, you still know they are there, so it works

thats my interpretation
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eyeless Blond
post Oct 6 2004, 11:50 PM
Post #11


Decker on the Threshold
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,922
Joined: 14-March 04
Member No.: 6,156



I can see the guard. He just ducked behind the wall, and I can see his face through the security camera next to me, through my Clairvoyance spell, and through the electronic magnification in my cybereyes. I can see him, I know he's there, but I still can't target him.

Try again? :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SilverWolf_assas...
post Oct 7 2004, 01:50 AM
Post #12


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 26
Joined: 5-October 04
Member No.: 6,728



Here is where I would house-rule like the DOG I am.

I would declare the foci as part of the person (when it is on their person) just like cyberware. It is worth too much money and karma to just blow it up. I would however, allow a dispel magic roll treated as force equal to double karma spent on bonding.

That would make it less then impossible but extremely improbable for anything larger then a spirit focus. The power and weapon foci, those things that can be worth up into the millions easy and cost an entire character his lifetime supply of karma, those would be near untouchable.

SKWN a.k.a. "skin", Vodoo/face
"Looken for a good time?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Edward
post Oct 7 2004, 02:51 AM
Post #13


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,073
Joined: 23-August 04
Member No.: 6,587



Perhaps we should consider the case assuming that the focus is visible and just read threw the fortnightly threads on focuses under clothing to realise we are not going to sole that any time soon.

Will a mana ball cast on ether the astral or physical plane affect a focus that can be seen? If so what effect would masking the focus have?

Edward
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Oct 7 2004, 02:54 AM
Post #14


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



QUOTE
SR3 p. 176, Astral Objects, last paragraph:
If an astral object is targeted with a mana spell, either on the astral or physical plane, it resists using Force for the Damage Resistance Test. The creator of the barrier or the bonder of the focus may add Spell Defense dice to help defend it, no matter where he is. If the object takes Deadly damage, it is destroyed. Otherwise, each level of damage (L, M, S) reduces the Force by one, which the object recovers in one Combat Turn as long as it suffers no further damage.

So, on the astral or physical plane, a targetted focus can be nuked as shown. A Masked focus would not be targetted from astral space, as it would not be astrally present. On the physical plane Masking would have no effect.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 7 2004, 03:29 AM
Post #15


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
SR3 p. 176, Astral Objects, last paragraph:
If an astral object is targeted with a mana spell, either on the astral or physical plane, it resists using Force for the Damage Resistance Test. The creator of the barrier or the bonder of the focus may add Spell Defense dice to help defend it, no matter where he is. If the object takes Deadly damage, it is destroyed. Otherwise, each level of damage (L, M, S) reduces the Force by one, which the object recovers in one Combat Turn as long as it suffers no further damage.

So, on the astral or physical plane, a targetted focus can be nuked as shown. A Masked focus would not be targetted from astral space, as it would not be astrally present. On the physical plane Masking would have no effect.

Of course, a case could be made about whether or not the Focus is recognised as a valid target by the spellcaster at the time of casting. If the caster doesn't know the Focus is actually a Focus even though it may be in plain sight, would it still be affected by the Manabolt?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brazila
post Oct 7 2004, 06:44 AM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 158
Joined: 19-March 03
From: Central IL
Member No.: 4,278



I think that the mana ball would still effect it, but could see argument against that too.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Edward
post Oct 7 2004, 08:49 AM
Post #17


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,073
Joined: 23-August 04
Member No.: 6,587



You would not target something with a mana bolt you did not know to be a focus but a mina ball is aria effect and must affect everything within the aria to witch you have LOS regardless of wether or not you noticed it friend, ally or innocent bystander.
Of cause y the same token a fireball would do serious damage to most clothing but I have never seen that modelled in SR ether. Have you ever seen burns associated with polymer clothing. Never fun.

Edward
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Canid13
post Oct 7 2004, 09:27 AM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 278
Joined: 28-September 04
From: The Smoke
Member No.: 6,709



I take it the damage to the focus (condition monitor boxes) remains but the Force 'regenerates' or does the condition monitor empty as well every Combat Turn?

My take on the issue is that a bolt would need to be targeted at the focus, but a ball would do the job regardless. The FAQ on the official website does speak about not hitting targets in an area of effect and how dangerous to the caster that can be.

And besides, if the focus gets nuked, it can still be re-enchanted :o)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 7 2004, 03:13 PM
Post #19


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



But Magic is supposed to be subjective on the part of the caster. If he doesn't recognise the Focus' existance as something to be affected by the Manaball, then it could be argued that his spell would not affect the Focus.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
RedmondLarry
post Oct 7 2004, 03:40 PM
Post #20


Senior GM
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,406
Joined: 12-April 03
From: Redmond, WA
Member No.: 4,442



QUOTE (Canid13)
I take it the damage to the focus (condition monitor boxes) remains but the Force 'regenerates' or does the condition monitor empty as well every Combat Turn?
The focus doesn't have a condition monitor. Any 'damage' is only the reduction in force, and as the book described, the Force will come back if the attacks don't take it to zero.

Barriers don't have condition monitors either. Damage to the barrier is also handled as a reduction in Force.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jason Farlander
post Oct 7 2004, 05:37 PM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,049
Joined: 24-March 03
Member No.: 4,323



QUOTE (Fortune)
But Magic is supposed to be subjective on the part of the caster. If he doesn't recognise the Focus' existance as something to be affected by the Manaball, then it could be argued that his spell would not affect the Focus.

So. Lets say we have a mage who, through extensive use of PAB units and alter memory spells, has convinced himself that any manaball he casts will not affect anyone he does not percieve as an enemy, and so he casts manaball on a group of his teammates and the ghouls with whom they are engaged in melee, blissfully unaware that his teammates *should* be viable targets of the spell. Are his teammates therefore unaffected? If so, I have a great idea for my next character...

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 7 2004, 05:54 PM
Post #22


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



That's just playing games with the concept though. :P

I think my example is valid. I'm not really trying to munch anything. I'm merely asking if, according to the casting mage, the Focus would be a valid target.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jason Farlander
post Oct 7 2004, 06:06 PM
Post #23


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,049
Joined: 24-March 03
Member No.: 4,323



I dont think it matters that much. I think it is more important that the focus is there, that (active) foci are valid targets for mana-based spells, and that the mage has LOS to the focus than that the mage has explicit knowledge that every object is a valid target. I don't think whether the mage actually knows, on a case-by-case basis, whether a specific target is valid will affect the outcome of a spell.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Edward
post Oct 7 2004, 10:56 PM
Post #24


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,073
Joined: 23-August 04
Member No.: 6,587



QUOTE (Fortune)
But Magic is supposed to be subjective on the part of the caster. If he doesn't recognise the Focus' existance as something to be affected by the Manaball, then it could be argued that his spell would not affect the Focus.

The difficulty with this point of view (excluding the mage deluded into thinking aria effect only includes preserved enemies) is that undetected targets should be effected, at least by my understanding of the spells.

Take for example the case where there are 3 security guards visible. I cast mana ball at them. Also in the aria is the team stealth op with ruthenium and making a very good stealth (sneaking) roll, security mage under stealth and improved invisibility and a mouse and 3 flies witch had failed to be noticed by the spell caster in the presence of 3 heavily armed security guards. Assume the mage is not astraly preserving. Who is affected by the spell.

Edward
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Necro Tech
post Oct 8 2004, 02:20 AM
Post #25


UMS O.G.
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 444
Joined: 18-May 04
Member No.: 6,335



Everyone but the stealth monster and security mage. If you can see a target it is valid. Anything that is not actively hiding can be seen. Both invisibility and ruthenium are actively hiding someone. Astrally perceive and gank them all. Stupid ninjas.

On a related note, an astrally perceiving caster who has assensed a target with 3 active and 3 non-active foci and casts manaball, they will get the target and the three active foci. Anything that can been seen with either vision gets you LOS and a roasted and probably poorer awakened character.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 09:47 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.