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 Channeling, What spirits can you channel |
 Oct 7 2004, 02:28 PM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 26-February 02 From: In the shadows of the SK Arcology Essen, ADL Member No.: 1,934  |
Ermmm. Immunity to normal weapons, not hardened armor. Thats a huge difference. With hardened armor you can still get hurt by APDS/AV ammo. With immunity you even havent to care 'bout that. |
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Oct 7 2004, 02:31 PM
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#27
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Nope: Problem one: If it's the ally that has gone free, you'd have to know his true name .. And such a ritual still takes it time .. Time that you don't have, since the spirit can go to his metaplane instantly or deciede to attack you before you can even start your binding ritual ... Problem two: If it's a bound "free spirit" that regains it's freedom, it cannot be rebound by the same magician (see MitS for details)
Nope ... since the "services" of watcher do actually have a game term: "task". The loophole for allies is the fact that there is no game term mentioned that decribes their "services" ...
Oh, I forgot about that ... Right ... That makes the channeling of an ally even less interesting, now doesn't it? ;) Less power at larger price ... |
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Oct 7 2004, 03:01 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not really. Immunity/Normal Weapons is hardened armor, for almost all intents and purposes. the only thing against which it doesn't act as hardened armor is killing hands, weapon foci, and elemental manips. an important difference, to be sure, but it's still nice to be able to ignore most small-arms fire and some large-arms fire.
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Oct 7 2004, 03:10 PM
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#29
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
If you follow the wording of those powers instead of what the FAQ tries to tell you, there is another significant difference: Hardened Armor explicitly requires the base damage of an attack to exceed its rating => burst / full auto modifiers do never enter the equation. Arguably modifiers from ammo types don't enter the equation either Immunity (normal weapons) however only references the power of the attack, thus burst / full auto modifiers of power do make a difference there. And when it comes to ammo types, it's only armor piercing stuff that's explicitly counted as "treated as standard ammo". i.e. APDS and AV ammo treated as standard. Explo ammo not ... |
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Oct 7 2004, 03:18 PM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh, i usually follow the FAQ. it's probable, at least in this case, that Immunity was meant to act as hardened armor against whatever the power applied to.
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Oct 7 2004, 03:20 PM
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#31
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
If so, then why have two different powers that do exactly the same? |
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Oct 7 2004, 03:20 PM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
What you would base excluding ammo type modifiers on? At best canon seems to not mention that, and since it explicitly excludes burst/full auto modifiers but not ammo modifers, i had always assumed/ruled they DID count towards breeching vehicle armour. It wasn't just not being mentioned. I also factored in why it made sense to exclude the power increase from multiple slugs, the idea that 100 misquitos slamming against your windshield serially was nor more damaging than than a single misquito hitting. However with EX-EX, for example, it's a much bigger misquito so the increased size has bearing on the damage.......ok bad analogy, but i got my point across? |
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Oct 7 2004, 03:22 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
because they're not exactly the same. hardened armor is useless against killing hands, weapon foci, and elemental manips. attacks from these sources are common enough in SR that the differentiation is important. as for why the powers would've been worded differently in the first place, it's probably because it was a mistake. i mean, for pete's sake, there was an entire section in M&M titled "chemestry"; dropping a phrase is not outside the realm of possibility.
as far as the ammo modifiers, the wording in the book is "burst-fire or anything else". that includes auto-fire, EX-X ammo, etcetera. APDS and AV ammo are later referenced as halving the hardened armor power (it's on the next page, so it's easy to miss). |
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Oct 7 2004, 03:38 PM
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#34
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Going back to pg. 132 of BBB [in my printing] it says "Vehicle armor is hardened armor, meaning that it can deflect all damage from weapons with a Power (modified by the vehicle's Body, but not by burst or autofire) equal to or less than the Armor Rating." That is why i treated it that way for vehicles. Perhaps it was an error to handle it the same way for spirits, BUT if you take that "or anything else" on page 263 to be all inclusive such that you now exclude ammo bonuses why wouldn't you include cyber/bio/magic Str modifiers, dikoting, etc. in the exclusions? Especially given that APDS/AVM ammuniton function the same way as against vehicles? (EDIT: and set the precident that ammo type can influence whether or not the armour is breeched) |
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Oct 7 2004, 03:45 PM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
because, for melee weapons, (Str+whatever) is the base power of the weapon. however, you're right--the descriptions of hardened armor in SR3 and CC don't include ammo type modifiers. sounds like something worth asking for clarification on.
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Oct 7 2004, 03:56 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Na just Shed loads of dice and close combat thanks. Martial Arts rules, nice idea, badly implimanted. |
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Oct 7 2004, 04:01 PM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ah, but it still is strictly speaking a modifier. ;) And what about the dikoting? In any event yes, i do agree there is a bit of gray that requires some interpretation to come up with it one way or another. If you felt the need to get it clarified for strict canon so be it, although there are a multitude of other places i'd spend the effort on clarifying first. I, as well as the people i have played with i guess, have always felt more than comfortable interpreting it as explosive rounds' extra power counts towards breeching armour. It flat out makes sense to me. *shrug* |
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Oct 7 2004, 04:06 PM
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#38
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Exchange Polearm with morning star (reach 2, single handed, whip-based weapon) and use a riot shield in your off-hand and some-one with close combat will not succeed as easily
That is true however |
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Oct 7 2004, 04:07 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh, a modifier would be something like dikote. the damage code listed in the stat block is the base damage. just because the base damage is variable, depending on who's wielding it, doesn't make it not base.
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Oct 7 2004, 04:17 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 28-September 04 From: The Smoke Member No.: 6,709 |
Whether or not the wording is different in the printing we, collectively, have in front of us doesn't matter in my view. The FAQ should be taken as gospel. Having said that, I do allow some 'or anything' to make a different. Explosive ammo is one example, as it's a more powerful slug which the armour isn't spec'd to deal with. But this is my own personal house rule which goes against canon, and Cannon (Companion). Just out of curiosity, who here has the very latest printings of the various books? As for dikote, I've always treated it as changing the base damage itsself so I allow it. |
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Oct 7 2004, 04:19 PM
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#41
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
many posters here do not, in fact, take the FAQ as gospel, however. i tend to, but others disagree. (i call those people 'sore losers', but that's because i'm an ass!)
that brings up an interesting point, though. apparently, the FAQ writer believes that ammo type is irrelevant to the hardened armor power. |
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Oct 7 2004, 04:25 PM
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#42
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Most definitely not ... The Gospels are the rules as written. Any significant change to them are reflected by Errata (which is something different than FAQ). FAQ do have the tendency to reflect only the opinion of it's maker and have very often shown significant errors when looking at the text and verifying the answers with the rules ... This is just one of those situations ... As for mfb calling people who do not see the FAQ as Gospel "sore losers" and that being the result of him being an ass ... I can't argue against the results of his self-reflection ... |
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Oct 7 2004, 04:34 PM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ah, i'll probably change my tune when the FAQ says something i don't like.
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Oct 7 2004, 04:45 PM
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#44
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Then take a look at the FAQ’s statement on invisibility and Sensors.
~J |
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Oct 7 2004, 05:04 PM
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#45
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
edit: joking aside, i don't have a real problem with the FAQ's take on invis vs sensors. their basic stance is, "it's up to the GM, here are some things to consider". can't argue with that! |
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Oct 8 2004, 01:09 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 20-September 04 Member No.: 6,682 |
I'm with you on every point, because I'm an ass too. :wobble: |
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Oct 8 2004, 01:56 AM
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#47
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Since the FAQ is compiled by the current Line Developer for Shadowrun, I think its answers should be considered as being fairly official. Not that I necessarily agree with everything contained therein, but that can be said about canon as well. :) |
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Oct 8 2004, 06:26 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 19-September 04 From: Charleston, IL Member No.: 6,676 |
Other than the fact that everyone has now officially gotten off topic, here is my opinion.
1. Watchers shouldn't be such a big problem considering the limitation you have on the force and the bonus you would receive because of it. ( they only have a maximum force equal to half your magic rating round up). So, it would be more chease to say no on watchers but watch a Grade 1 initiate Shaman with Channeling use a Force 6 or more nature spirit. Especially since the channeling is an even shorter effect than the the time a watcher would normally be arround. So why give the Shaman a huge advantage here since the Shaman would be out of nothing where a mage would be out of a ton of conjuring materials for such a short boost. 2. Watchers can be created to stick arround for long periods of time if you want by spending karma or just purchasing conjuring materials to add to the summoning. I would think twice before wasting one of these. (let us not forget how useful they can be) Not to mention that these can last longer than Nature spirits. 3. If the argument as stated by previous posters is based or partially based off the fact that watchers are here on a time constraint, then so are nature spirits, thus rendering them as possibly being unusable. I personally don't think so, but just going off your logic. 4. An ally spirit absolutely should be able to be used, afterall...you spent the Magic point and tons of Karma to bind him with virtually infinite services that can come back at you. Why not have full range of access to him. But, then again...this is only if you consider an ally spirit to have infinite services and the game mechanics are restricting the channeling ability to a specific word "services" vs. "tasks" instead of the concept or idea behind what they will do for you. A task implies they are not serving a master, but only accomplishing a goal, yet they serve me. I don't buy the whole play on words bit. Sounds like we are playing Magic: The Gathering again. 5. I totally agree with the Psionics spirits as mentioned previously. No contest there. Again, keep in mind that the Channeling only works for a few minutes, makes you dual natured, and uses up a possible friend in melee (etc...). |
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Oct 8 2004, 07:07 AM
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#49
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, i mean, the FAQ may just be one opinion--but it's the opinion of the guy in charge of making new SR products, which means it's the opinion that's going to be referred to when rules questions come up during the development of new products.
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Oct 8 2004, 11:57 AM
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#50
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Given that that entry in the FAQ contradicts the rules under Heavy Armor power, which explicitly says AV/APDS do count, i hope you'll understand when i chalk it up to a mistake. :) P.S. What if i, in a momment of weak sanity, have my slugs dikoted? Treating dikoting as altering the base of the weapon is basically doing what i'm doing. Saying "the strict wording here doesn't f#$%king make sense", then giving the author the benefit of the doubt that they weren't a moron and simply made an oversight. :) |
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