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> I hope this doesn’t work, Bad bad bad dept power combo.
Edward
post Oct 7 2004, 11:39 PM
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I hope this doesn’t work.

Bad bad bad dept power combo.

Can you use this combo in tandem?

Killing hands
Delayed strike (the subtle version)
Distant strike

Consider the assassination implications. You never approach eth mark closer than a few meters, your 3 miles away in a police station when he dies.

Not to mention setting yourself up to take vengeance on the Johnson when he screws you over.

Would this leave any astral evidence? Would somebody astraly preserving you while you make the attacks notice what you where doing.

Edward
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GrinderTheTroll
post Oct 7 2004, 11:43 PM
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As far as I remember, Adept powers don't leave astral signature, it's not like casting a spell. However, the death of the Mark would probably incur a background where they die.

Nasty, yes. But kinda boring unless you get to see their face when they die. :evil:
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 7 2004, 11:48 PM
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I'm pretty sure it does leave a signature. Even if not, it leaves a visible mark, which can be removed with a dispelling test, resulting in no damage.

The combo works, though; it's a bit of a famous one.

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Kanada Ten
post Oct 7 2004, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE
The combo works, though; it's a bit of a famous one.

GM interpretation. Delay Damage (Silent) does not use a melee attack and thus shouldn't be used with Distance Strike as that requires a melee attack, which is turned into a ranged attack. Delay Damage (Silent) inflicts base Killing Hands damage with no chance of staging up since you make no attack. IMO.
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Cochise
post Oct 7 2004, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (Edward)
I hope this doesn?t work.

Your hopes are not fulfilled. It works ...

QUOTE
Would this leave any astral evidence?


Generally speaking: No. First of all all powers do primarily affect the adept himself, thus even if a power produces a signature (and the rules do not provide information on that), that signature would end up on the person it affects, just like a sorcerer's signature ends up on the target / targeted area where a spell is cast. So ultimately the adpet would imprint his own signature onto himself when using one of his powers.

Even killing hands do affect the adept and not so much the target of a melee attack. Although the results of the changes made by killing hands are dramatic.


Distant strike is a different thing however (it sort of weakens the concept of body-magic, since the power for the first time does not enhance / alter the body of the adept itself, but affects something external). Still there isn't anything in the rules saying that adept powers do leave a signature at all. GM's call I'd say there.

QUOTE
Would somebody astraly preserving you while you make the attacks notice what you where doing.


Although there normally might not be a signature with adept powers, the delay damage power can be noticed, since it explicitly states that it leaves a perceivable magical charge on the target that can be "dispelled" und must be sustained by the adept until the time when the damage will occur (note that the time has to be determine before the use of the power, a slight difference in comparison to sustaining a spell. also note that if the target walks through an astral barrier, before the damage occurs, the charge will automatically drop without effect). This charge might even hold the signature of the adept (provided that you assume that powers actually do create a signature). This magical charge thing also sort of weakens the concept of body magic.

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sidartha
post Oct 8 2004, 12:00 AM
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It does leave an astral signiture and any one assenceing the victim can see a unusual power build up on his/her aura and once discovered can attempt to dispell the effect.
Since I don't have the book in front of me I can't be sure of the specifics, sorry.
As far as das uber combo is concerned you have to have killing hands at D and a boat load of other powers making a starting character rather lacking, if not downright impossible.
Of course YMMV ;)
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Cochise
post Oct 8 2004, 12:02 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
GM interpretation.  Delay Damage (Silent) does not use a melee attack and thus shouldn't be used with Distance Strike as that requires a melee attack, which is turned into a ranged attack.  Delay Damage (Silent) inflicts base Killing Hands damage with no chance of staging up since you make no attack.  IMO.

Could you quote the text where it says that the Delay Damage (Silent) doesn't require a melee test?
Just because the visual movement might be a flic of your finger, the delay damage power IIRC still requires a normal melee test.
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Kanada Ten
post Oct 8 2004, 12:05 AM
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You can read as well as I; if you think the Silent power requires a melee attack, then you do, if you don't you don't. Please quote where it says the test is required.
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Cochise
post Oct 8 2004, 12:08 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
You can read as well as I; if you think the Silent power requires a melee attack, then you do, if you don't you don't.  Please quote where it says the test is required.

The reason why I'm asking for a quote is, that my MitS is currently out of reach ...
As for me being required to provide a quote that this power requires a melee attack:

Sorry to say that, but the default assumption of any melee attack (an d delay damage is still an attack) is that you use the melee rules. Thus anything that doesn't use those rules should normally explicitly say so, wouldn't you agree?
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toturi
post Oct 8 2004, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE
The victim may not defend or counterattack, but the attacker cannot use Combat Pool.


I think a roll might be implied.
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Cochise
post Oct 8 2004, 12:10 AM
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That heavily implies an attack roll
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Fortune
post Oct 8 2004, 12:40 AM
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I gotta go with Cochise on this one. An Attack roll would be required (even if only for the chance of a rule-of-ones event!). :D

I subscribe to the premise that the effects of an Adept's Magic should be almost completely internal, affecting only himself. As such, Distance Strike (in my opinion a completely external effect) does not exist as an Adept Power in my games. It would be valid if the Adept's arms grew 5 meters to strike the target though. :)
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 8 2004, 12:44 AM
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A roll is required to handle possible staging as well, unless I'm seriously forgetting the wording here.

~J
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Dakhran the Dark
post Oct 8 2004, 01:20 AM
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I'm definitely in the "it works" camp. It's a powerful combo, but to the exclusion of much of the usual utility of the adept. Silent Delay Damage takes 2 PP, Distance Strike takes 2 PP, and if you geas the hell out of all your powers, you can get Deadly Killing Hands (4 PP) and make yourself a distance Dim Mak killer. But you're about as skilled and speedy as an uncybered mundane, and probably not long for the world if you're a shadowrunner. Might be a good way to spend those points later on, when you initiate and/or spend Karma...

However, the reason I like the combo so much is that I have a secret organization of assassins in my game that may end up as a contact and/or enemy to my PCs. A group of kunoichi (female ninjas) calling themselves Dofuku tend to use adept combos such as these, as well as more traditional and subtle mundane methods, to take out high profile targets...

[EDIT]
Oh, BTW, Delay Damage has to be sustained by the adept (+2 to all TNs, no Exclusive magical activites) or be dissipated harmlessly. It can also be astrally assensed on two or more successes, and can be dispelled. Not exactly undetectable...
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Eyeless Blond
post Oct 8 2004, 02:00 AM
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Meh. Delay Damage and Distance Strike sound more and more like spells to me, and thus less like adept powers, every time I hear about them/read the rules. I'm not sure I'd allow either in a game if I were a GM, particularly as SR goes to great lengths to put a specific purview on the powers and abilities of the adept.
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SilverWolf_assas...
post Oct 8 2004, 02:22 AM
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I have used it in two different characters and found that isn't as overpowering as you might think. Once you get masking and initiate a few times it becomes nearly the deadliest combo available. But you can only mask up to double your force in foci and spells, if I remember correctly, so you can only do it a few times before it is obvious to a precieving mage assuming you treat it as a spell of force equal to your magic rating or level of power points used while attacking the character.

In order to balance it, we usually just run a balanced campaign where you are only the star of the show once in a while. I also usually create a tie to the character that makes it sort of a plan B. It doesn't make for even a mediocre starting character if you just gun strait for it (you are usually left with low skills, no reflexes, and low strength). The two characters I made on this concept didn't complete killing hands or enough attack skill to really be disgusting till they were well passed 70 karma.

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Luke Hardison
post Oct 8 2004, 03:12 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
It would be valid if the Adept's arms grew 5 meters to strike the target though. :)

Can I join your game and make a physmage with Arm Growth, Flamethrower [Geas:Gesture(spitting motion)], Fireball[same geas], and Levitate[Gaes:Gesture(Yoga)]
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 8 2004, 03:19 AM
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Only if I get to be a Chinese Interpol officer.

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toturi
post Oct 8 2004, 03:22 AM
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Or a Thai kickboxer with one eye!

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lacemaker
post Oct 8 2004, 05:02 AM
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I agree with eyeless, at least with regard to distance strike - it just doesn't fit the concept the adept as someone who has a body transformed by magic IMO.

One can kind of imagine delay damage as a Fu power that happens to have magical special effects, but even that's a stretch...

In any case I'm a traditionalist when it comes to adepts, and don't even allow imrpoved ability for skills involving technology, like firearms and gunnery...
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BitBasher
post Oct 8 2004, 05:32 AM
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RedmondLarry
post Oct 8 2004, 07:12 AM
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Our team doesn't allow the Silent type of Delayed Damage to work along with Distant Strike.

Distant Strike says the target gets to use Combat Pool in resisting, which means the target is aware of the attack. That seemed incompatible with the Silent type of Delayed Damage. Our players running Adepts were comfortable with this ruling.
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Adarael
post Oct 8 2004, 07:52 AM
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By the rules, the three way combo is valid. However, one or two of the powers (Delay Damage and Distance Strike) I believe cost *more* if the PC already posesses Killing Hands at any level, specifically to dissuade that combo.

You want a good combo for cheaper?

Step 1: Get Killing Hands S.
Step 2: Get Distance Strike.
Step 3: Get a martial art that allows for multistrike.

Technically, you should be able to multistrike people at a distance. With Strength S damage. Ouch.
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toturi
post Oct 8 2004, 08:34 AM
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Actually there is an even worse combo, though its validity may be suspect.

Killing Hands S
Distance Strike
Full Offense
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Shockwave_IIc
post Oct 8 2004, 09:01 AM
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QUOTE (Adarael)
By the rules, the three way combo is valid. However, one or two of the powers (Delay Damage and Distance Strike) I believe cost *more* if the PC already posesses Killing Hands at any level, specifically to dissuade that combo.

Think that was second Ed.
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