Vision magnification and adepts, Effect of VM for cybercharacters& adepts Options

[Ombre]

I need some advice on that one:

On BBB. p.300, it is written that vision magnification can lower a target number based on range, in the same way as vision magnification mounted on a rifle.
On p.169, in the Magic section, the rules state that the Improved Sense adept power can emulate any sense provided by cyberware (unless linked to radion/technological phenomena) (that's why you get some NPC adepts in a few published adventures with this power: one example I can think of is Fletcher Quinn, the assassin adpet in one of "Shadows of the Underworld" 's adventure)
So, basically it means that for 0.25 Power point, an adept may purchase Improved Sense (Vision Magnification) which would be rating 3 since, unless I'm mistaken, adept powers operate at the max level.

Which implies that cyberboys and adepts with top-notch vision magnification are always considered as being at short range, neh?

The only thing is I can conceptualize how cybered Vision Magnification, when linked to a smartlink can actually give the modifier, with some kind of crosshair appearing in your visual field to show where your weapon is pointing. But an adept doesn't have any "magical crosshair". When he/she focalizes on a target 100m away, he/she can't see the weapon he/she is holding, and so should not get any modifer. In this respect, I've always considered magical Vision Magnification as a way of seeing things as if you were closer, good for spotting/observing people and things from far away, but not as a way of sniping at them...

What do you guys think of this "problem": should I keep my conception or should I stick to the rules that seem to imply that an adept should get the bonus?

[Kremlin KOA]

consdering vision mag doesn't work with smartgun links... your conception is far off, it produces an amost Zen like effect (there is me, there is the target, that is all.)

[toturi]

Vision Mag is incompatible with Smartlink or SL2.

[Fortune]

The Improved Sence: Vision Magnification works exactly as you state. For .25 PP they get VM3.

Vision Magnification of any sort is not compatable with a Smartlink, in so far as TN bonuses are concerned. A character can choose to benefit from one or the other at any particular time.

I would like to direct you to the Shadowrun FAQ, which might serve to answer some of your questions in a more official manner. You should surf around the site as well, checking out the various Errata on any books you might possess. :)

[edit]Damn you both! I was actually typing something semi-useful! :P [/edit]

[Ombre]

Yes, I know you don't get the Smartlink -2 modifier with Vision Mag. Seems I wasn't clear enough: I meant if cybered VM can give you the range reduction as stated on p300, it is probably thanks to a kind of crosshair or something appearing in your visual field...
I f I understand your point, you would give the same range reduction bonus for an adept with magical Vm, but based on a zenlike concept, wouldn't you?

[Fortune]

The range reduction has nothing to do with crosshairs. The target just appears closer. Whether that effect comes from Magic or Tech makes no difference.

[Ombre]

Thanks Fortune, and sorry about disturbing you :grinbig:
I checked the FAQ, and it seems to work that way...
okay, I know there isn't any reference to crosshair or whatever (don't imagine I'm a kind of crosshair fetichist :D ) but it's just I fail to imagine how you could benefit from VM without having any indication of where your gun/hand is pointing at...

[Fortune]

I wasn't referring to you in my previous post. ;)

yeah well...there are a lot of things in Shadowrun that are a stretch. Just be grateful that VM and SLs are incompatible. :D

I's a toss-up on which is better. Vision Mag 3 gives you flat base of 4s across the board, but a Smartlink/Rangefinder (also can't be used with VM, but it's fine with SL) combo works out to a base of 2, 3, 3, 5. In any situation short of extreme the SL wins out, and even without the Rangefinder Long is still equal to VM.

[mmu1]

I think they should just roll vision magnification and microscopic vision into one piece of cyberware, and call it something like "Increased Visual Acuity". Better yet, make a new piece of cyber to go along with the other two.

That way, instead of zooming in on something (which brings up the issues of stabilization, loss of peripheral vision, etc.) things wouldn't appear any larger, but your ability to discern detail at any range would go up greatly.

[Kremlin KOA]

how do you aim normally? think about it you don't have cross hairs but you do aim a throw anyway, if you can pick out closer detail you can aim better, also you can more easily diferentiate the angle on the iron sights if you can zoom without loss of focus

[Ombre]

okay guys, you've convinced me...fair enough Kremlin, your stone-throwing example is a good argument. Okay, so I guess it's gonna be Xmas day for my adept player who had gone through the whole Missile Mastery + throwing (shuriken) 4(6) routine to have a bullseye type, but realized that shurikens were difficult to use efficiently because of rapidly growing range mofifiers.
Thanks for your wired-reflexes and quick answers and see you on another thread...

[Fortune]

If you want to give him a stocking-stuffer, point him towards the Quick Draw Power. It's quite useful for those that aren't using pistols. ;)

[Kremlin KOA]

wait till the player sees the rules for adepts and centering...

[Fortune]

Then bring him back down again by reminding him that the Improved Ability: Whatever Power cannot exceed the General Skill. He's better off in the long run no speecializing until he raises his skill more. ;)

[Kremlin KOA]

then f he doesn't already have them show him missile mastery and missile parry... he will go for those and then for combat sense to have the spare combat pool to power all these add ons.

[Ombre]

My girlfriend (my adept player) purchased the Quick Draw Power at chargen, of course, to be able to shoot two arrows or two shurikens per action phases...
She's now hesitating between all the available options offered by Initiation (which she is going to undergo at the end of next run if she can contact a magical group): boost her Increased reflexes from level 1 to level 2 ? Get Improved Unarmed Combat 2 or Improved Bow 2 ? Pain Resistance ?...
Life's made of hard decisions...
she 's not even aware of the metamagic abilities like Centering...speaking of which, I couldn't find the reference but I thought you had to be able to Astrally Perceive to get Masking. is it still true in 3rd ed ?

[Kremlin KOA]

not anymore as AFAIK (book elsewhere) but when she sees centering for thrown or for bow she will drool, zen archers become reality at that point.

[Fortune]

Masking is available to all Adepts as a Metamagic, regardless of whether they can Perceive or not.

With Centering, remember that the first time te Metamagic is taken it only applies to Physical Skills (Stealth. Athletics, etc.). The Adept has to acquire the Metamagic again to open up wider possibilities.

[Kremlin KOA]

true, but what possibilities

[Fortune]

From there the Adept can branch out. With the addition of the Adept material in the recently-released SotA '64 they have lots of options open to them.

[Kremlin KOA]

that was partly hypothetical, damn typed language lack of emotive subtlety.

try this for an example of what I meant...

----------------------
"You still dating that jailbait virtual girl?"
"She's not Jailbait, she's 17."
"She's not real, she's just pixels."
"Yeah, but what pixels."

[Ombre]

I'm still waiting for my Amazon fixer to send me my copy of SOTA 64. Are thre any adept powers that would fit the concept of my girlfriend's character: no firearms, unarmed combat, thrown and missile weapons (shurikens and bows).
Her powers are: Increased Reflexes 1 , Missile mastery, Traceless Walk, Cat Fall 2, Quick draw, Empathic Sense, Low Light Vision, Thermographic Vision, Improved Scent, Vision Magnification...
As for her "Way", it is not so clear cut in SR3 and MitS...somewhere between the Invisible Way and the Way of the Warrior...I heard (or read) that this aspect was stressed in SOTA 64...hope it won't invalidate her choices are far as power costs are concerned...

[Fortune]

It could have been taken either way. I just chose to clarify in case it was necessary. ;)

[Fortune]

An Adept's Way is individual to that Adept, as depicted by the player. If she can raionalize it, it's all good. :)

Check the SotA thread for a discussion on Powers.

[Kremlin KOA]

that's it must play an adept of the irrational way