Decking with Multiple Deckers, sorting contradictory rules Options

[Kagetenshi]

It's come up before a few times, but I've yet to find a satisfactory explanation for what happens when you have multiple illegitimate deckers in a system. I've got two things I want to address today:

1) Canon. Strict canon, nothing but. What happens?

In SR3, it says that a single decker's security tally follows him or her across hosts and grids unless one hops RTGs. This suggests that security tally is inherent not to the host but to the decker, which would mean that each decker would have their own tally. On the other hand, it states elsewhere that if a decker logs off and another logs on, that second decker inherits all remaining security tally, suggesting that the host itself has the tally that all deckers share. There are two ways I could see this panning out:

A) The decker has the tally, but gives the tally to the host when logging off. The host hands the tally to anyone who logs on illegitimately thereafter until cleared.

B) The decker has a tally, which is then given to each and every host he or she passes through, leaving large numbers of elevated systems in his or her wake.

Two further questions are raised: first, what happens in the following scenario:

Big Jim the master decker gets into a system, but the host gets lucky. His tally is raised to 12. At Step 4, Step 8, and Step 11 IC programs are triggered; Big Jim crashes and suppresses the IC at Step 4 and 8, but decides after the third piece shows up that things are getting too hot and he'd better come back later. He logs off with a piece of IC still roving the system.

Dipswitch the newb jacks on before the tally reduces.

Does Dipswitch face:

• The Step 11 IC
• The Steps 4, 8, and 11 IC all at once
• Something else?

Question 2:

Big Jim the master decker is at it again. He's in a system with a Tally of 12. IC at Steps 4, 8, and 11. He's crashed and suppressed the IC at Step 4, crashed but not suppressed the IC at Step 8, and is still duking it out with the IC at Step 11.

Dipswitch the newb jacks on at this point.

Does Dipswitch face:

• Nothing
• The same copy of the Step 11 IC that Big Jim is facing
• A new copy of the Step 11 IC
• The Step 8 IC as well as the Step 12 IC
• All the IC at once
• Something else?

The second issue has to do with balanced houserules for this, if needed, and a check on whether they might indeed not be houserules but valid interpretations of canon. I'll type those up and stick them in a reply shortly.

~J

[Kagetenshi]

Part two, balanced houserule (if we can find a proper answer for part one, this part may not be necessary. However, I hold little hope for that to be the case)

I was talking with CirclMastr about this issue, and he suggested giving each decker a separate tally, but upon an increase in Alert Status all decker tallies would immediately jump to the value for the Alert Status, and all further deckers would start there. For instance:

Big Jim, master decker is in yet another system that looks eerily similar to the others. He's doing much better now, and has a Security Tally of only 2. Meanwhile, Dipswitch the newb has been struggling. He's triggered a lot of IC, and at Tally 10 he triggers a Passive Alert, rocketing Big Jim's tally to 10, minimum for the Passive Alert. Thermopylae the passably skilled decker logs on, and her tally starts at the same minimum of 10. They do a few more things and then leave. The security tally drops to 9, and Atticus, Decker Bystander, logs on. As the system is no longer at passive alert, his tally starts out at the floor for no alert, or 0.

This raises some questions like

• When does the IC reset?
• What does one of the original deckers have to do to start off at the minimum? Just jack back in? Change jackpoints? Change decks? Something else?

If the IC resets after the system tally drops below the level, wouldn't it make sense to skyrocket the tally, kill all the IC, wait for it to reset a bit but not fully and then go in to do stuff free of IC worry?

~J

[mfb]

IC resets, i'm 99% sure, when the sec tally drops below the level that triggered the IC. by strict canon, every decker has their own security tally that follows them around on an LTG. magically, it hangs with them even if they logoff and then log back on. it cannot be passed off to anyone else, ever. the only things that apply to multiple deckers are Passive and Active Alerts, and of course System Shutdown. the only way to get your security tally reset is to logoff of the LTG for a while.

in your examples, Dipswitch would face no sec tally and no IC. i suppose you might have the IC do Locate Decker ops, and stumble across Dipswitch by accident.

[Kagetenshi]

[mfb]

no, tally does not get passed on to other deckers. sec tally is not a function of the host--the host does not mark down anywhere that it is at security tally 8, or whatever. sec tally is a measure of how much the host has noticed a certain intruder; when that intruder logs on, the host says "that guy's got sec tally 8" and activates whatever IC is appropriate.

this makes no sense in real-world computer terms, i know. but that's how it works in SR.

edit: references. Matrix, page 110; Security Tally and Multiple Icons. SR3 page 212: Host/Grid Reset.

[Kagetenshi]

From Page 212 I just quoted a section where security tally explicitly does get passed.

Matrix Page 110 is enlightening, though, and a further contradiction. So tally doesn't get passed unless the originating decker logs out before the receiving decker logs in…

~J

[Sabosect]

I can't seem to find that on 110. I do, however, see plenty of info on fighting with guns. Perhaps you meant 210?

I'm thinking the tally is how "angered" the system is at the actions of a certain person. Thus, each person having a separate tally. But, being a machine, it doesn't differentiate between intruders when unleashing its replies. And when the decker logs off, the system begins to calm down a bit but will redirect its anger at the first person to log on it again.

That's my interp.

[Kagetenshi]

He's talking about Matrix Page 110, not SR3 (which is in the Combat section, as you noted).

There, it explicitly says that each icon has their own tally, and also answers the question as to what IC will be faced at given steps. It does not resolve the aforementioned contradiction, however.

~J

[Sabosect]

I know. I was just being, to use Shadowslang, a hoop.

It actually hints at that in the SR3 book. On page 211, it says:

[Kagetenshi]

If the writers work anything like the way I do, my guess would be that halfway through they forgot which way they were going at it from and didn't even realize it.

~J

[mfb]

gah, you're right, SR3 does say sec tally gets passed. this damn rabbithole just gets crazier, the deeper you go. no wonder everybody else takes a pizza break when the decker's doing his thing.

[Kagetenshi]

When one decker's doing his thing, everything's just dandy. It's only when you start digging below the surface…

~J

[Sabosect]

http://forums-temp.dumpshock.com/index.php...opic=5709&st=53

That's how my group solved the problem.

[Kagetenshi]

Killing the Rigger's significant other is not a path to a long lifespan :P

~J

[Sabosect]

Hey, as she said: "I swear, if we could package our incompetence and sell it, we'd drive Saeder-Krupp out of biz."

That aside, perhaps there is an easy way to deal with this whole mess of decking. Now, hold on while I force my brain to grow enough competence to come up with it.

Edit: Got it! Go back to my interpretation. That may work.

[Kagetenshi]

IC Constructs follow your guidelines, as do alerts, but IC explicitly does not.

By the time this is settled, I am going to be so sick of the word "explicit" it won't even be funny.

~J

[Sabosect]

Simple solution: IC is incredibly stupid and really doesn't give a damn.

[Kagetenshi]

I think we may be reaching something that makes sense, though (and by makes sense I mean follows all the given rules. When it comes right down to it, I suppose I don't mean it makes sense in the least). Deckers have separate security tally until one of them logs off, at which point every successive decker to log on gains the tally of the logged-off decker. Question is, if you have multiple deckers log off, whose tally do you receive? The highest?

~J

[Sabosect]

It would make sense. The system lost the target of the largest portion of its anger and will probably redirect it to whoever comes on next.

[Kagetenshi]

Angry systems rage.
Wise deckers seek protection.
Storm passes slowly.

~J

[Sabosect]

I am, of course, putting it in terms I can understand.

[Kagetenshi]

Some situations call for haiku. This was one of them.

~J

[Kanada Ten]

I deal with it by having the IC floating still around and the security alert level persistent, but give each decker a unique tally regardless of log on sequence.

[hobgoblin]

matrix overrides sr3 at some points from what i understand. sr3 talkes about a one decker world except for that one section on page 212. and that is most likely done for simplisity reasons. matrix overrides this with its multiple icons, multiple tallys system. if you have matrix go with matrix.

as for the passing on of security tallys. a RTG and its LTGs share a tally, but the "phone" company is reluctant to fire of ice at people as they seldom have anything off importance on these systems (want the phone bills, try their PLTG. and trust me, it will not be funny). RTGs are most often a contry wide system and what you do in one contry dont affect a diffrent contry (most of the time).

standalone hosts or groups of hosts dont share tallys. you can rise nine kinds of hell in the chokepoint or public host and the background hosts will not blink.

PLTGs however are electronic versions of corp extraterritoriality mixed with a LTG server. basicly if you come onto this one with a tally from a RTG or LTG they will raise hell. how this affect the hosts in said PLTG however im not sure about (dont recall reading anything about it).

as for IC being stupid? they mirror the avarage rent-a-cop or school bully. they go after thier mark unless someone else pisses them of as then both are valid targets.

constructs are less so. but not by mutch...

SKs and thier big bro the AI? run, just run. or in the case of the AI, just give up and face your master...

oh and a gracefull logoff will 99% of the time clean you of any tally as you just go bye bye. pulling the plug less so as your icon have to time out first. but when it goes poof then your in the clear...

[Necro Tech]

I try to combine both paragraphs to avoid contradiction. A security tally is only passed on when someone logs onto an angry host after someone else has already left. This seems to avoid the contradictions best.

Example:

The Necro Tech logs on to Ares Bellvue to do a little shopping from the weapons catalog. After filling his shopping cart, he is in the middle of checkout when N00BIUS MAXIMUS logs on with Daddy's terminal. NT currently has a tally of 4 and already crushed and supressed the initial probe IC. N00B jacks up his Tally to 22 in just two combat turns. Like the inevitable tide, the glacier that is Ares matrix security sweeps the bumbling idiot aside. Since the system went on active alert and is orange, NT decides to browse the catalog some until the alerts are cancelled and the systems ratings drop back to normal. Just as the passive alert is cancelled, Neo13566789 logs on and is suprised to find a tally of 10 and probe, trace and masking crippler waiting for him. As Neo's ever present shades and trenchcoat are stripped away to reveal the pathetic poser inside, the passive alert is triggered and the killer IC blows him off the grid. Once again NT waits for the alert to cancel, completes his "purchase" and logs off.

From reading the rules, this avoids all the contradictions I can find. What do you guys think?