[X] My Assistant

[Kagetenshi]

[RedmondLarry]

Feonyx, I think you can have a great time with these players and their characters, and can run a table where everyone has fun. Based on your descriptions, I don't see any problem with these characters.

Remember that Fixers and Johnsons are not stupid. They will hire these characters for what they are good for. The team won't be hired to infiltrate Tir nobility, and the Troll and Ork won't be hired to pose as waiters at a high-society afternoon Tea. You need to design 80% of their adventures to be what intelligent Fixers and Johnsons would hire them for. Fixers and Johnsons will hire, for most runs, the cheapest team (i.e. least powerful) that they think is likely to succeed. Therefore the Fixers and Johnsons will, as part of their business, make sure the runs are challenging to your players.

If you are unsure of your ability to create the right level of opposition, consider using a GM screen to hide your dice rolls and adjust results so the team feels challenged but eventually succeeds if they are smart. Eventually you'll get to the point where you make challenging opposition and can roll your dice out in the open, where every player knows you are being fair and death is just a roll away.

One way of making equal opposition (for when you need it), is to get photocopies of their characters and then tweak them to make your NPCs.

If you feel they are combat oriented, give them a combat oriented run. Here's an example:

[ Spoiler ]

Fixer calls the runners to meet Mr. Johnson in an alley behind a sports bar. Mr. Johnson was betrayed by a previous Shadowrun team, and gives the runners photos of the members of the previous team, obviously taken with an eye camera in an alley behind a sports bar. He wants the previous team killed, and is willing to pay decent money to see it happen. He needs the runners because the previous team has gone into hiding somewhere in the metroplex, and his own men are too obvious when they go poking around for information. The runners have to use their contacts in the shadows (fixers, bartenders, dwarven mechanics, talismongers, etc.) to track down the previous team. Make the previous team members be exactly equal in power to each of the current runners, but they'll be found split up in groups of 1, 2, and 3 people each. Therefore, by working together, the runners should be able to overcome each small group when they meet them.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Feonyx]

God you guys are just awesome. Lots of great ideas for runs and lots of great input into the problem. I do realise its more of a stealth game.. hence the "shadow" and I've told them eventhough we are doing the StuffShack Ganger fight first (from First Run) it is a complete mistake to think this is the way to do things in SR.

I have yet to get the character sheets off of them as they are still tweaking them, but I looked over them and heard what they were excited about.

To answer a few of the questions posed:
-The toons are brand new and made using the Table and not the point system.
-Adept has a bunch of skills/magic that soften flare and stun, magic armour, lots of repelling skills, stealth skills, 3 guns and some black armored stealth suit and ~6 Initiation dice.
-Business man scares me with his people skills, his wired flexes to his automatic machinegun case (high conceal) and went with 1,000,000 for equipment (since raising skills and attributes is easier at lower levels read: heavy min-maxer)
-Yes they are nitpicky rules lawyers, but I'm trying to turn up the RP with Karma rewards and turn down the rules-lawyering, but knowing more than them (by reading everything shadowrun)

You guys mention a bunch of Critters and NPCs to through in the way. Should I:
a) Create my own NPCs ala PC charts.
b) Buy the Critters book.
c) Tweak the campaign/run books by cloning and changing slightly the NPCs
d) Other...

When I play I am a heavy RPer and I tend to make a character that is fun to play even if he isn't the best at what he does. Then a situation arises where my skills are found a little wanting and all the other players go: "You should have done this and that" The GM agrees and my character becomes cookie cutter so I can do the job. The thing I LOVE about Shadowrun is that you can heavy RP and min-maxing need not be a problem.

I am humbled by all of your suggestions, imagination and knowledge of Shadowrun.

/bow

Feonyx

[Feonyx]

PS. OurTeam your run suggestion is exactly what I need :). I also read somewhere else about a bunch of guys attacking a building with little or no leg work and once they got there they all died because they were doing their own thing. Teamwork is really important and that run has teamwork written all over it. I love it :). Ditto Kanada Ten suggestion.

[Wounded Ronin]

Oooohhhh yeahhhh.....that's another thing.


In a lot of cases, players don't seem to coordinate their combat very well, at least in my experience. Like, no small unit tactics whatsoever, regardless of what their actual small unit tactics score is. :3 :grinbig:

[toturi]

Shadowrun could be almost be a completely roll-play game but it is after all an RPG.

The way I see it is that with good RPing, the TNs set for skill checks is lower. But with good min-maxing, the PC can make use of those lower TNs.

[twofalls]

Jeeze Louise guys, the game is for everyone to have fun... its a G A M E. Both the GM and the Players have a right to have fun, or they can exersice thier right to walk out the door.

If the GM is insensitive to the desires of his players, they will walk. If the players are insensitive to the desires of their GM they will be looking for a new GM soon. C'mon, it doesn't have to be "THIS WAY OR THE HIGHWAY".

I'm 36 years old and I've run games for 26 of those years and I've not once run an rpg where some form of violence wasn't a big part of the game, but at this point in my gaming life the story is more important than anything and roleplaying is what makes the story revolve. If you players want to shoot things, then let them shoot things, if they shoot the wrong thing, let there be a natural consequence. My players know not to frag with the Star. When a cop gets shot the Corp tears the Plex apart to find the perp, its only logical, particuarly in a world where guns are so easily availible. You have to teach the citizens that you can't mess with the enforcers. Just run the game logically, explain that to the players, and then let them minmax to thier hearts content, frankly the game lends itself to it.

I agree with limiting the starting gear. I limited my game to 8 availibility as suggested in the book, and didn't allow Dikoted weapons or Ruthenium Polymer fiber clothes. Allowing the group Troll to run across an open fire field with a base stealth of 12 (sans magic or luck) doesn't flick my swtich at character creation. And giving all guards infra-red spectrum vision enhancers was a strech of credibility to me. :)

[Eyeless Blond]

Quick note on that businessman: make sure your player knows that cybering up a Face is generally a bad idea. Especially when you drop below 3 Essence, the social penalties really start to rack up. It's one of the main balancing points of cyberware, in fact. This is one major reason bioware is so useful to many character archtypes: it doesn't have that particular drawback.

[mmu1]

[Eyeless Blond]

Eh, Ruthenium's fine. It doesn't make the Troll any *quieter*, for one, nor does it stop the beaded or plastic curtains placed in his path from shaking, nor does it make doors any easier to open, pressure sensors easier to bypass, thermal goggles/cameras easier to sneak past, etc.

Dikote I have a problem with, but only because it makes no sense at all and is probably not balanced for edged weapons.

[Wounded Ronin]

Gaah, didn't you guys watch the really bad movie they made of The Shadow? You're supposed to have ankle deep water everywhere.

[twofalls]

I respect your opinions even as I disagree with them. Dikote we seem to agree on, its overpowererd and doesn't need to be in the game IMHO, so in my game its not. Ruthenim Fibers can give a max of 12 base stealth, I don't want to have this in my game either. I don't want to have to give my gaurds I/R goggles, or put "Beads" in doorways, or use fancy electronics in every place that I feel players need to have a chance to be detected in order to increase drama. If a player has a special piece of gear, or a neat ability I don't want to feel that I have to nerf it to create a challenge, and (at least in the way I've run Shadowrun) I'd have to do that with this piece of tech. Its too much for my sense of how to run my game for me to include for the players pleasure.

Are there ways to defeat it, can I come up with plausible reasons why security systems are set up to do so... yes... but I choose not to.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Wutasumi]

[Wounded Ronin]

You rack up karma like EXP for killing things? I didn't know that.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Wutasumi]

This was my first GM in SR. I was used to D&D.

[Wutasumi]

No, there were heavy weapons, mages, ALL SORTS OF SHIT THAT SHOULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!!

HE STAGED A 15D WEAPON ATTACK DOWN TO NOTHING! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

[Austere Emancipa...]

[GrinderTheTroll]

LOL, i've never had a problem killing players, I think it's harder to try and balance response to NOT kill them.

I am not sure about your situation, but based on the Karma-reward, I'd guess there are deeper problems you might need to address. Remember, players will get away with whatever you let them.

[Wutasumi]

[tisoz]

[Sandoval Smith]

There's availability for initiating? Anyway, that's definitely a bad plan at chargen, IMO.

[Kagetenshi]

I personally allow cultured bioware, because it is canon to do so (and because most of the stuff that make bioware worth getting is in there). Initiating I'm more iffy on.

~J