 Bows and Adepts, Scary Combined Power? |
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 Oct 16 2004, 07:00 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834  |
Should an adept with quick-draw be able to grab an arrow and fire it as a single simply actions? Normally a bow requires a ready weapon, then a fire weapon for each shot. But quick draw lets you ready and fire a weapon as the same action. Interesting thought.
Combined with Improved Bows and a Troll with way too high a strength Min you could have a scary weapon though. |
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Oct 16 2004, 07:12 PM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes. the quick-draw action makes readying and firing a weapon the same action; the quickdraw power allows you to use the quick-draw action on anything.
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Oct 16 2004, 07:14 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 12-September 04 From: Ames, IA Member No.: 6,653 |
Throw Attribute Boost Strength into that mix with the Troll, then we'll talk scary. We had someone - as a human, mind you - buy a Ranger-X Compound with STRMin 18. It was pretty disgusting.
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Oct 16 2004, 07:28 PM
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#4
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Jesus Freak Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,141 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Anaheim, CA Member No.: 6,274 |
Yeah, its a very cool combo that I like to use with Native American Adepts. I could fire off 3 arrows every two rounds.
Round 1: Quick Draw Arrow (free), Shot (simple), Draw Arrow (simple). Round 2: Shot (simple), Quick Draw Arrow (free), Shot (simple) |
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Oct 16 2004, 07:30 PM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you're, uh, doing it wrong. the quick-draw action does not make readying a weapon a free action. it makes readying a weapon part of the same action as using the weapon. you should have been firing 2 arrows per round:
draw and fire (simple action), draw and fire (simple action). |
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Oct 16 2004, 07:32 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
All that, and you still get to yell at the gun bunnies for not killing anything.
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Oct 16 2004, 07:38 PM
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#7
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Jesus Freak Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,141 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Anaheim, CA Member No.: 6,274 |
:eek: Even better. :) |
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Oct 17 2004, 01:47 AM
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#8
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
:rotfl: |
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Oct 17 2004, 01:54 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 9-October 04 From: I'm in Hell! HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!! (A.K.A Alabama) Member No.: 6,739 |
I always thought bows were WAY overpowered. It's not hard to get them to shoot farther then a gun...
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Oct 17 2004, 01:57 AM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Depends on the gun. 17 strength outranges a sniper rifle, but you need 40 to match an assault cannon.
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Oct 17 2004, 02:01 AM
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#11
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Range isn't an issue. It's being reduced by Impact instead of Ballistic. Since Impact tends to be lower (due to guns being more proliferant), then anybody other than people in Sec/Mil Armor, a vehicle, or an Adept with multiple levels of Mystic Armor is going to go splat real quick.
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Oct 17 2004, 02:18 AM
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#12
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Any Joe on the Street is more likely to wear leather than armour.
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Oct 17 2004, 02:35 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 9-October 04 From: I'm in Hell! HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!! (A.K.A Alabama) Member No.: 6,739 |
The fact you have to go to sniper rifles to find something hard to get proves my point.
Yes, I didn't even think of the impact armor thing. |
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Oct 17 2004, 04:09 AM
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#14
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
I liked my guy.
Human Str 6 Increase Str. 6 (3 power points) Projectile Weapons 6 Bows 7 Improved skill Projectile Weapons 6 (3 power points) Bows 7 (yes adept powers carry over to specializations) Thus giving me Str 12 Projectile Weapons 14 And that is only 6 power points if I take a Geas on my powers I can go to 8 and get quick strike or what ever. I once rolled a 46 on a skill test for my bows the gm said "ok your arrow goes through the glass door (I was in a building) goes through the armored limo through the guy (in through his side out through his head) out the limo's other side and you loose track of it. ( I was told I would not be able to find the arrow DANG IT!) but yeah a physad like this is leathal and fun to play |
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Oct 17 2004, 07:08 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
Should I be the one to point out that EOTLF's adept was working with a couple extra power points?
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Oct 17 2004, 07:11 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
He might not have read the errata on Improved Physical Attribute. . .
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Oct 17 2004, 07:23 AM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i might point out that i don't believe specialization is possible with the Improved Ability power. also, specialization gives you 5 in the base skill and 7 in the the specialization, not 6 (7). also, as clyde pointed out, Improved Attribute costs double above the starting max, and it can't bring you above the attribute max (ergo, Str 7, 8, and 9 would have cost 1 point each, and 10, 11, and 12 would not be achievable with this power).
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Oct 17 2004, 07:43 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 14-March 04 From: Cal Poly: SLO Member No.: 6,155 |
judging by the way archery works, I would probably say quickdraw does not work on bows, and definatly not on crossbows. However, re-reading the rules just now, it does say 'missle weapons', which would include archery. So, bring on the bowmen. I would still say it requires a few things:
1. The bow is already strung. For crossbows or a compound bow, this is never a problem, but for recurves, even a light bow still takes about 30 seconds to get the string on. Granted, if somebody's taking a bow with them on the run, they'll have it strung already, but you normally keep it unstrung when you're not using it. 2. They'd have to be using a shoulder-quiver. Hunting archers will often use a hip/leg mounted quiver to carry their arrows because it doesn't stick out to catch on things, and is generally stealthier, and designed so the arrow can be drawn silently. Because of the design and placement though, it takes longer to draw and ready the arrow. 3. If there are multible types of arrows in the same quiver, they won't have time to check which type they're firing. So roll to see which arrow just got shot. BTY: While it is rather difficult, some types of pistol crossbows can be reloaded one-handed. Although with the hit system shadowrun has, it'll probably never come up, but it can be done. It does require good balance, and probably can't be done if the crossbow is right at the str limit, but take a complex action (or 2) and you'll be ready. |
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Oct 17 2004, 10:41 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
A backward-facing on-side quiver can be nearly as quick to draw and load. Not my choice of quiver styles, I admit. Also bear in mind that some bucket-style quivers can be capped to stop the arrows from falling out. If an adept has one of those, he has to disengage the cap first; if he doesn't, he risks losing arrows in any major athletics test or fall. Incidentally, I gather the rules for Dikote have changed since 2nd Ed - can you no longer shoot vehicles with dikoted arrows? (I always used to find a couple of dikoted arrows into the engine block did wonders for discouraging pursuit ;) ) |
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Oct 17 2004, 01:53 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
No, it costs 1 point per increase once you go beyond 9. Humans can hit 12 and beyond with this power. The wording specifically states that the power allows you to exceed the Racial Modified Limit (9 for humans). EOTLF's adept should be paying 4.5 points for his Strength of 12. Further, that adept can only have 6 points of Improved Ability in Projectile Peapons, as that is rating of the general skill. The "carries over to specializations" wording just means that you get to use the dice you paid for (6, in this case) with any specializations you have in that particular skill. You don't get an extra Improved Ability die just because you're using it with a specialization. |
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Oct 17 2004, 02:18 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The Racial Modified Limit for any attribute for any race is 6 + Racial Modifier. In the case of humans, that's 6 for all attributes. The Racial Maximum for any attribute for any race is (6 + Racial Modifier) x 1.5, rounded up, or 9 for all attributes for humans. mfb is correct. If you don't believe us, read pp. 244-245, Improving the Character of SR3. |
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Oct 17 2004, 04:00 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
Goddammit, you're right.
Man, that's the second rules thing I've f'ed up in as many days. I'm slipping! |
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Oct 17 2004, 05:39 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Why not just use different coloured flights? If its on a hip quiver, you'd be able to see the colours and draw exactly which type of arrow you want. And just like people with different types of ammo might put different coloured tape around the different clips so they can keep track, different coloured flights would work the same. I'm also not sure about it taking as long as 30 seconds to string a bow. I've strung a longbow quite a few times because of a historical thing I do in the summer (a modern bow, true, not a real Tudor one which were TRES difficult to string as they had a phenomenal pull strength. It seems a bit off to be using the wrong prop at a historical thing, but its for kids, and you don't shoot or anything. Its just difficult enough that the 12 year old you pick to demonstrate has difficulties in pulling it, so you can stop the kids being so cocky in the face of an angry Tudor soldier by impressing on them how tough we're supposed to be), and though I've never actually timed myself I'm sure I can manage it in less than 15 seconds or so, and I'm hardly strong. Having said that, I don't claim to be an archery expert, the bow in question is for demonstration purposes and I've never shot with it (they don't like people randomly shooting longbows when there's aparty of school kids in front of you. Not that some of them don't deserve to know what it felt like to be French at Agincourt, mind you...). So I could be wrong. But from my experiences I beleive stringing a bow is more about technique than it is strength, and certainly a combat trained bow-user would be quite considerably faster than 30 secs. Doubt they could do it in a combat turn though, and you wouldn't be able to crouch behind cover whilst you did it - you really do have to be standing, at least for a longbow. As for how fast they can fire, a trained (that's trained since the age of 8 years old until they were 16 or so and already with a deformed spine from the abuse that training inflicts on the body) english or welsh longbowman in Tudor times could shoot off about a dozen rounds a minute, so that's once every five seconds, a little under two combat turns. For an unaugmented human averaging one action a round, even including the ready weapon each time you fire, that means the rules are off by quite a bit if they allow you to fire the thing even once per combat turn and hope to hit your target. Based on that (which is based on what I've been taught about the history of the longbow - its quite possible a shortbow is faster to draw or slower to draw, I've no idea personally) I think with something like a bow (not a crossbow), each ready weapon should be a full complex action, if you want to go for realism. But realism has never been a driving force behind many of the shadowrun rules, as I've heard many on here testify to, so I'm not going to worry about it too much. And I've noticed a lot of people think bows and crossbows are overpowered in SR, and I have to disagree with you. A heavy crossbow (of the type my neighbour has) hits with the same punch as a shotgun, and its not even a particularly heavy one. I can't draw it, but then I'm not very strong. He can nock it quite easily, though not speedily. A long bow with the right arrow head is quite capable of penetrating thick sheet steel of the like that armoured knights wore at 100 yards or more, and closer than that it can go straight out the other side and cause serious injury to whoever was behind the ex-Knight. Scary weapons. They just can't match the fire rate of a firearm is all, and of course a firearm has no problem penetrating steel armour. From what I've seen though, a crossbow doesn't have a lot of trouble penetrating armour designed to stop bullets either, so on that score I think they even out. Bows/crossbows lose out on their size, the size of their 'ammunition', and the speed (or lack of) at which they fire. But in terms of power they're definately on a par with many modern weapons. You can also retreive the evidence... |
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Oct 17 2004, 05:54 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
uh once every five seconds I can do better than that and hit throat on a man sized target 4 times in 5
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Oct 17 2004, 06:40 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Any Joe on the street is more likely to wear serious ballistic armor than serious impact armor. Impact 2 isn't particularly protecting, and more people would have synthleather for a point less. ~J |
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