UMT text error? Options

[Zenmaxer]

In the unified magical theory rules, it says they can learn to conjure nature spirits instead, but in the flavor text, it very very clearly talks about spirits of the elements, and how the ability derived from research in joint hermetic-wujen study circles. Which should it be?

[Dashifen]

All of the above. I took it that since it's a Unified Magical Theory that they can do pretty much what ever they put their mind to.

[ Spoiler ]

Kinda like Ghostwalker, perhaps? YOTC describes how he sacked Denver using just about every spirit known to metahumanity and then some. Maybe there is something to the UMT .....

Edit: fixed spoiler ... not even sure if it needs to be a spoiler, but spilers are fun. Right?

[Tanka]

In response to the spoiler...

[ Spoiler ]

Dragons/IEs/anything that has been around since before the 6th World uses Magic very different than the rest of humanity. They follow no path, totem, wheel, whatever. They just do it and don't bother thinking about it and what/who they follow. Thus, Ghostwalker can summon any kind of spirit without worrying about what tradition he's screwing with at the moment.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Re-counter-spoiler

[ Spoiler ]

Dragons can cast any magic just by considering the effects. They also have access to a level of magic that surpasses anything mortals can learn and that has only been approached by one non-dragon immortal on record.
Immortal elves are typically educated by systems of magic that are slower, but greatly more powerful than basic SR sorcery, they also only deal with drain when rushing the process.
As for the other category, some of them are equals of dragons in the ability to cast any lower spell, but have a different type of high-end magic, others have restrictions of various sorts.
Ghostwalker is an odd case, because he personally knows more types of spirits than any other dragon or mortal before or since. Despite that, he never had met a loa in his metaplanar vacation.
I'm sure I'm leaving some essential arguments out.

[Dashifen]

True, but

[ Spoiler ]

whose to say that metahumanity this time around hasn't become able to tap into the powers that dragonkin have always had access to? Perhaps the only thing that seperated the magic of dragonkin from "normal" metahuman magic in the past was the the lack of a unified conception of magic among metahumans.

With the advances in physics towards a unified theory field theory (even if we don't have a really good one yet) that we've seen IRL, I think it stands to reason that those concepts could be applied in a post-awakening world to magical theory as well. If we presuppose that metahumanity didn't come up with that concept before (I'm not up on my ED lore so that assumption might be refuted already) then it could stand to reason that metahumans might be able to tap into a "type" of magic that they weren't able to access before.

Whether you buy it or not -- provides an interesting reason for certain power players in the sixth world to be interested in learning more about the UMT ...... :vegm:

[Synner]

Dashifen is correct in his interpretation. An UMT Initiate with an appropriate academic background who opts to develop the ability his paradigm grants can summon Elementals or Nature Spirits or Spirits of the elements or even Loa. However current limitations in the understanding of magical theory which have yet to be overcome mean he loses the ability to call upon the type of spirit he previously could. this phenomena has yet to be fully understood or explained, although some people think it has to do with conceptual limitations imposed by the human mind rather than magic itself.

Regarding the origin of UMT and its underlying paradigm, a look at the foremost schools where its being taught might lead to some interesting speculation about where it's really ultimately coming from and SoE provides yet another missing link in the mystery besides the more obvious one.

[Zenmaxer]

If that's your intent, then you had better issue an errata, because the text does not really support that synner... unless you want to open up the pandora's box of implied powers.

However, I do agree with you guys, and tanka is right... Dragons cannot summon spirits of man, including ancestors and loa. I wish I could remember what book that was mentioned in though.

[Synner]

The Game Information text mentions only "elementals and nature spirits" because that's the current available stage of development (ie. SOTA trickling down to street-level). The fiction in the chapter and mentions in SoE and DotSW suggest that the actual laboratory SOTA is just slightly beyond this - currently all this means is that abilities beyond those in SOTA64 are essentially a plot device.

[Zenmaxer]

Forgive me for being a stickler, but next time, please make that somewhat more explicit. As it is, it just looked like somebody got confused.

-sorry if I sound offensive, but I'm totally exhausted -

[Critias]

[Fortune]

[Kanada Ten]

So that's what Shedim are...

[Dashifen]

[Fortune]

Can I play? ;)

[Zenmaxer]

:: grins :: the worst part is that there's some support from ED for the idea..

[Herald of Verjig...]

Are you referring to Ghostwalker's mate or the nethermancer trick? Or is it something else that didn't come to my mind immediatly?

[Wireknight]

As per Dragons of the Sixth World, Dragons can summon Nature Spirits, Elementals, and Elemental Spirits. They cannot summon Spirits of Man(or related beings like Ancestor Spirits and Loa, which are explicitly described as types of Spirits of Man). That is completely off-topic, though, and I hope it closes this particular off-topic tangent.

Returning to the topic, I'd say that one can switch over conjuring powers to apply to any particular category of spirits that another magician could ordinarily summon. You could switch over to Wujen and summon spirits of the elements, or switch over to urban Shaman and summon nature spirits and spirits of man, or switch over to a woodland Shaman and summon nature spirits and wood spirits, or switch over to a Pheonix Shaman and summon nature spirits and flame spirits.

The only think I'd explicitly disallow, barring further consideration, is shifting one's summoning to permit the summoning of loa spirits, as vodoun behaves differently from the other basic traditions, and that could have ramifications.

[akarenti]

I doubt the loa would take kindly to being conjuring by hermetics who saw them as just another type of spirit. The loa are accustumed to a bit more respect from their conjurers than other spirits.

[FrostyNSO]

In the ED Dragons sourcebook it refers to "Dragonsight". If I remember correctly, dragons could percieve the very fabric of the manasphere. In pre-ED times, they could manipulate this fabric at will to create any magical effects they could imagine.

[hahnsoo]

[Fortune]

Is it actually a Metamagic, or does it just require a certain level of Initiation?

[hahnsoo]

[hahnsoo]

[Prospero]

I assume this is all SOTA2064 stuff, BTW? Hmmm... I might have to get that next paycheck...

[hahnsoo]