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> [SoA2064] Berserker Adepts
blinkin
post Oct 19 2004, 03:14 AM
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Berserker Adepts in SOTA: 2064 do not get any magic without being berserk. Any ideas on any benifits they should get? Or should they get any advantages?
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Kanada Ten
post Oct 19 2004, 03:20 AM
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Sounds like all their powers are geas'ed to the state of berserk. So I guess a straight reduction to the power point cost of all powers by 25% and maybe some kind of pain resistance built into a berserk flaw/edge (flaw if it is attack the closest living thing, edge if it is attack the closest enemy with the most effective weapon).
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Herald of Verjig...
post Oct 19 2004, 03:37 AM
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Let them take a power equivalent to an adrenal pump (including PP cost ~= bio index), and make all other powers geased on that one being active.
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Synner
post Oct 19 2004, 07:52 AM
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We actually had a straight-forward solution similar to the gaesa situation Kanada's proposed, but we opted to leave it out and allow GMs to interpret that concept in whatever way best suits their campaigns. The gaesa option with a 1 or 2 pt. Berserker flaw (possibly using berserk rules in various Totem descriptions) also seems appropriate.
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Siege
post Oct 19 2004, 11:04 PM
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I would think they don't get any additional benefits of being a "Berserker" - you take the geas, you have to make Willpower 4 rolls to voluntarily enter a Berserker rage.

That's a mighty hefty lock on someone's magic, but if it fits the character, go for it.

I'd suggest letting the adept pick which powers to geas so as not to be as crippling - "Oh no, the adept is losing it again! Relax, it's just the beer."

-Siege
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Nomad
post Oct 19 2004, 11:53 PM
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But do they turn green and increase in bulk?
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Joker9125
post Oct 20 2004, 12:04 AM
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Id allow it :grinbig:
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audun
post Oct 20 2004, 08:56 AM
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QUOTE (Nomad)
But do they turn green and increase in bulk?

Yes, they do! Except that in Celtic tradition they usually turn blue and in Nordic tradition they take on the form of a wolf or a bear. Increase in bulk = Attribute boost. So feel free to do an American tradition berserker :D
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RangerJoe
post Oct 20 2004, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE
So feel free to do an American tradition berserker


Geas: Speech--must state clearly, "You won't like me when I'm angry."
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Siege
post Oct 20 2004, 09:12 PM
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A Bear physical adept might have two different geas going, depending on the power and relative state:

Geas: Physical Mask (ya start to look like a bear)
Geas: Berserk (Only functions while "berserk")

And if ya wanna be a goofball: -2 flaw: Berserk (Willpower 4 or better to resist going nuts)

The Bear adept might buy "empathic healing" with the Physical Mask Geas - as it is a Bear bonus.

Berserk Bear would probably be along the lines of: Pain Resistance, Killing Hands, Increased Reflexes and so on. Just for fun, he might even double-Geas these powers - although most GMs will probably nix the idea after they stop laughing.

-Siege
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Synner
post Oct 20 2004, 09:28 PM
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Actually that's one possibility we discussed which is why the Shamanic Adept's shamanic mask effect wasn't spelled out in the rules. GMs might prefer to handle it as part of a gaesa, as a standard shamanic mask or as something that only crops up when the adept uses a lot of his powers at once.
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Siege
post Oct 20 2004, 09:55 PM
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That was part of my problem with the "hands off" approach to the Ways.

At least provide a section of "Option 1" and "Option 2" rather than having players attempt to reverse engineer possible solutions - not every player or gm is as free-form as that.

Players buy rule books for a reason.

-Siege

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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 20 2004, 10:02 PM
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I was about to comment on the same thing, but since I don't have a copy of SOTA:2064 yet, I refrained. But since this does seem to be the case... it kind of concerns me. What's the point in buying a rulebook if you leave everything up to the GMs to decide?
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mfb
post Oct 20 2004, 10:09 PM
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i'm not sure SOTA:64 leaves "everything" up to the GMs to decide. SOTA:64 does provide basic, optional rules on how to run Ways--the rule being, if you don't have one, your powers are more expensive. i'm not even going to use that rule, in my games; i think adepts are limited as they are, and limiting them more makes them even harder to play.
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Siege
post Oct 20 2004, 10:13 PM
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Sota 2064 isn't completely freeform - there are a fair number of hard-and-fast rules and numbers behind the fluff, but a good portion of the book is fluff.

Entertaining fluff, to be sure, but fluff nonetheless.

If you play adepts, it's a "gotta have" book - if you don't play adepts, it's highly optional. I'll refrain from enumerating all the neat things to be found in it's pages and the adept section will, if nothing else, give some of the more creative players ideas for comparable cyberware.

The Ways and a couple of other places are spots where I would have included more numbers to give readers a frame of reference for creating, extrapolating or outright mutilating the possibilities. That said, thumb through the book and make your own decision - the balance may be so skewed you don't care for the material or you might find it a good blend of both.

And on a side note, the role-playing hooks in back are fun, even if you never use them in any of your games.

-Siege

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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 20 2004, 10:14 PM
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I've just seen that comment mentioned twice in this thread, so it didn't inspire much confidence. But again, I don't have the book yet (had to put the game to the side for a few months due to the real world), but I should have it in a couple of days. Hope it's not as bad as it's been sounding. :)
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Siege
post Oct 20 2004, 10:18 PM
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It's not Bad as in, "oh goddess, why did I waste my money and life buying this pile of snail droppings wrapped in hobbit snot?" kind of bad.

In fact, I found the book to be quite enjoyable -> although to be fair, I am a player of adepts.

I found the fluff to be enjoyable and diverting, but since this is a feedback thread, I and othe readers were trying to give a semi-critical review of our impressions of the book and how it could have been better (in our humble opinions).

And since you and I have ended up on opposing sides of discussions in the past, you may not agree with all my observations. :grinbig:

-Siege
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mfb
post Oct 20 2004, 10:22 PM
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well, fluff is important. SR isn't just a game system, it's a game world.
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Siege
post Oct 20 2004, 10:29 PM
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Sure - to a point.

But I disagree that a 3/4 fluff, 1/4 mechanics is a good balance.

-Siege
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Critias
post Oct 20 2004, 10:29 PM
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It's also worth pointing out there is a fairly in depth (16 page or so, I think) thread all about SOTA 64.
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Synner
post Oct 20 2004, 11:23 PM
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The issue of Ways was addressed in the other thread. I explained there that it was decided that GMs and players shouldn't be forced to enforce one specific set of rules for the Ways when the concept itself allowed for so much leeway (as compared with magical traditions for instance). This leeway also ruled out simply introducing lists of powers "associated" with each way (ie. one of the shadowtalkers makes a pretty good example of how a Artist adept might use Smashing Blow or Killing Hands as a creative tool).

We also ruled out the option of leaving it entirely up to GM fiat whether powers fitted (or not) with a given character's interpretation of a Way, thereby excluding the player.

In fact most of us believed that Ways are integral to the character concept and that defining and integrating a Way in play should be simply a natural aspect of roleplaying an adept and a challenge for the GM. In fact we enourage GMs to play up the ramifications of a character's choice of Way in the game itself beyond simply adding mechanics.

For those that would, inevitably, want more teeth to the concept an alternative was actually included in the text as an Optional Rule, which provides a mixed solution where the player defines the adept's individual approach to his Way at creation, the GM then discusses with the player whether or not a given power is appropriate to that character. If the player can't present a good reasoning (such as an Artist using Smashing Blow to sculpt rock with his bare hands) for the character developing that power through the his Way, the GM can allow it at a slightly increased power point cost because it is beyond the focus of the character's training. The rule also applies to power development in play or when a character strays from his way (ie. an Invisible Way adept always using his powers to fight in the open) or characters who never chose a formal Way (the "Lost").


Regarding the fluff to rules ratio, I would point out that many people think SR already has a heavy rule set and that if you look closer at the fluff in the Spy, Adept, Cop and EuroMagic chapters you'll find plenty of hooks and links to ongoing subplots as well as fluff to frame the rules.
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Siege
post Oct 21 2004, 03:36 AM
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As I noted, individual results may vary.

While I agree some books are massively rule-prone, swinging to the other side isn't necessarily a good thing either.

-Siege
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Canid13
post Oct 21 2004, 11:41 AM
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I agre with Siege here. I think SR is a little rules bulky, not heavy since it's more padding than anything else (and proper indexes would help).

But it's still nice to see something in a book, and then be told how it is done, or even how it could be done. I don't get a lot of time with my players, so the less time I have to spend reading rules the better, but I'd much rather read rules which are hard and fast (ish) than to have to read the whole chapter and decide how I interpret a whole bunch of stuff.

Then god help the player (and PC) if I lose my notes or change my mind..... that's happened and gets sticky.
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Wireknight
post Oct 21 2004, 07:14 PM
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I one major problem with the idea of a rules-benefitted "berserker" adept. The "must be berserk" geas is not limiting enough. If it takes a Willpower(4) test to go berserk, and is a free action(it's not stated anywhere what type of action it is, and I would call it a free action before I'd call it a simple action), what's to stop an adept with high Willpower from almost always fulfilling the condition for their geas?

Geasa should ensure that a character's adept powers are not functioning at least half of the time. When we get into the fact(it's stated in SOTA:2064) that initiated adept berserkers reduce the TN# on the Willpower test by their initiate grade, it becomes even less acceptable. A berserker adept with a few grades of initiation under their belt will be able to go berserk except in the event of a critical failure of their Willpower test.

However, ignoring this for a moment, if I, personally, were to make a berserker adept, I wouldn't give them a weird non-canon "magical adrenal pump". There's no reason to. The effects of an adrenal pump can be simulated, in all the ways that a berserker might need, with simple application of Attribute Boost. Here's a 6-point(with geasa) loadout I've used in the past for a NPC adept working for Winternight:

Adept Powers(Universally Geased: Berserk): Pain Resistance(Rating 6), Improved Reflexes(Rating 2), Strength Boost(Rating 8).

While they might pass out or be seriously fatigued after activating their powers(as they should be), during the period of time that they are berserk(and they always activate Strength Boost when this occurs) they are very dangerous with their weapon of choice(this one, a toxic idol worshipper of Thor, used a warhammer weapon focus and a pair of shock gloves). 16M, or 13M Stun + 8S Stun(Shock), is nothing to sneeze at.
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audun
post Oct 21 2004, 08:31 PM
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I'm not sure what it says in the book (still waiting for my author copies), but the target number is supposed to be 6, and you have to be an initate to even make this test.

Still, the limiting aspect is that you have gone berserk, "attacking the closest living thing, friend or foe, using the most powerful weapon available" (BBB, p 163). Half the time you attack your friends rather than your friends. Uninitated adepts have to be wounded to go berserk, or take so much drugs or booze that they enter a combat frenzy automatically. Though when rereading the rules for berserkers they are bit vague on this.

As a sidenote I never intended the shamanic mask to be a geas. Actually I can't see how it can be as isn't limiting the adept in any way. Shamanic masks on berserkers acts like it does on shamans (BBB. p 163), except for cultural variants where they turn blue or green :spin:
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