HOUSE RULES; MARTIAL ARTS, something I found Options

[DarkShade]

while looking at old papers from old campaigns I found a houserule by a GM who started a neo tokyo campaign, it was made for SR2, but can be incorporated as is into SR3 should you want to.. it is about 5 pages long , lets see if the board can handle long posts.. :)
NOTE: I only had it on paper and have scanned and ocr`d it so it may have some spelling errors. & lost most nice formatting touches :)

[COLOR=blue]
MARTIAL ARTS IN SHADOWRUN

Greetings to all my fellow Shadowrunners, as few as you may be. Even though I have only just joined the legion of Shadowrunners around the world, there are a few things which really don't fire up my enthusiasm. One of those things is recoil, but that's another story. The thing which I am going to talk about today, is Martial Arts. Picture the following:

Lee Bruce has been wandering around the streets of Neo Tokyo for quite a while, looking for the scumbag who raped his sister. Knowing him to be part of the Killer Kensai Gang, he has moved onto their turf, and is now finally homing in on his target. Before him, three gangers, including the one Lee is looking for, are sitting on their bikes, laughing and cheering about some damned crime they've committed. Lee pulls his shotgun, aims, and two thunderous claps later, only one is still sitting on his bike. The other two are lying on the road, bleeding, not moving. The other punk reaches for his gun, but Lee steps forward, his shotgun held high, aimed at the punk's head. "Go ahead punk, make my year!" Lee says, in his best East Clintwood imitation voice. The punk seems to think better of the plan, and lowers his hand to his bike again. "You raped my sister, scumball, and now you're going to pay. But I'm not going to shoot you, oh no! That would be too easy for you. I'm going to kick you to Kingdom come. Get off your bike and fight like you are a man!" And with that, Lee throws away his shotgun, and assumes a ready fighting stance. The punk looks at Lee with disbelief, pulls his Saí - Yien Dragon, and blows Lee's head off

Every Shadowrunner knows that this is going to happen. As long as somebody has a gun, you don't try to melee him. It's stupid, sad, and a really good way to make sure you don't live very long. But let's just imagine that the punk Lee's facing is actually rather stupid, or very sure of himself, and takes Lee up on his offer to go melee.

And with that, Lee throws away his shotgun, and assumes a ready fighting stance. The punk smiles, gets off his bike, and produces a fighting stance off his own, although a rather feeble one when compared to Lee's. The two circle each other for a few moments, and then lunge at each other. Lee makes a delicate feint and slashes at his opponent's throat. His opponent has no finesse, and simply kicks at Lee. To Lee's surprise, the kick hits him solidly in the chest, even though he tried to block, and his own slash goes wide by several inches. Lee tries to follow through with a jab to his opponent's eyes, but the opponent rams his elbow into Lee's face, and continues to pound Lee with everything he's got. After a few more seconds, Lee falls to the ground. His last thoughts on this planet are "How could this happen?" as the punk's boot crushes his skull through his brains.

How could this happen? I've actually played this combat with the normal Shadowrun Melee rules, and the above thing happened. Lee got his butt kicked, the punk only received one blow. The most logical thing would be that the punk is better skilled. In fact, the punk is not. I gave Lee a skill of 7, and the punk a skill of 4. Lee's skill was in martial arts, the punk's skill in unarmed combat. Normal logic would suggest that Lee kicks the punk's ass every single time. In fact, he lost twice, and only won once. (For you clever people out there, I played the combat three times.)
You can suggest that Lee rolled poorly. If you keep throwing 1,2,2,1,1,2,1 with your seven dice, you're bound to loose. This is true, but bad rolling is something that can always happen, so I don't wish to take it into account here.
The main problem with the scene is that both Lee and the punk have the same degree of difficulty hitting one another, namely a target number four. Sure, Lee gets to throw seven dice, and the punk only four, so Lee has a larger chance to hit the punk, than the punk has to hit Lee. But I had also created the two so that Lee had a combat pool of five, the punk had one of eight. Adding the combat pool dice, both throw 12 dice for a target number four. Even odds on who'll win. So Lee could've easily won two, or even three fights. But that's not the issue here. The issue is that Lee has a skill of three full points higher than the punk. If Lee had to buy the skill while he was already playing, that means he would've had to spend 17 points of Karma more than the punk, only to be left with an even chance of winning.
It is true that with the negation of the combat pool advantage to the punk, the chances would shift in Lee's favor, but not enough to warrant the seventeen points of Karma.
The main reason for this is that the shadowrun melee system says that whomever throws more successes that the other, hits his opponent, while his opponent does not hit at all. Only an attack counts.
But a martial art is also (and perhaps even more than attacking) a defensive sport. There is a very big difference in trying to hit a blue belt martial artist, and trying to hit a first dan black belt martial artist. But defense never features in the melee system of Shadowrun. It's all attack. This is reflected in the fact that with Combat pool dice, you add to your attack in a melee. You do not keep dice in the event that you are hit. It is easier to go all out to try and hit your opponent, so he cannot hit you at all, than it is to try and hit him, but also keep something in reserve for when you are accidentally hit, so you do not get damaged so much.
One way to change that is to say that both combatants hit each other, instead of just the victor. This leads to more dice rolling, and to more confusion, so we'll forget that option. Another way to rectify it, is to alter the target number you have to make to get a success.

By saying that all melee attacks are made against a target number of four, you basically state that every skill in every form of unarmed combat bestows upon you the same degree of skill in protecting yourself. This is complete bullshit. A fourth dan Aikido - ka is much less likely to get hit than a fourth dan Muay Thai fighter, since both sports focus on different theories within a fight. Aikido defends, Muay Thai destroys. So instead of saying, hit a target number four, say the following:

Hit a target number equal to the skill of your opponent.

In our example of Lee vs. the punk, Lee would roll seven dice for his skill, plus five dice from his Combat Pool, which equals twelve dice against target number four. The punk would roll four dice from his skill, plus eight from his Combat Pool, equalling twelve dice, but against a target number 7! As you can see, the odds swing back in Lee's favor by a substantial margin. In this case, Lee has some bad luck since rolling a seven equals rolling a six, but that can't be helped. If the skill count would've been Lee 8, Punk 5, the gap would increase even further.
"But", I can hear you all whine, "The odds of hitting a guy with skill 16 or even 12 or so, would be almost impossible!". This is true. But have you ever seen just how awesome sixth dan martial artists are? Can you then even imagine how unbelievable a 10th dan martial artist is? Also take into account the truckloads of Karma you have to spend before you reach skill 12 (or, God forbid, 16).
"But", you whine again, "Physical adepts can reach those numbers quite easily!". Yes, Physical Adepts can and will reach those numbers. And they should. They are people who spend their whole lives, and their whole magic potential (don't forget that) into enhancing their fighting skills. They don't use chrome, they (usually) don't walk around with assault cannons, they are good in a melee. So let them have their invincible martial arts skills. God knows they may finally have something going in their favor. "But", you finally whine, "Now I can never win anymore from a guy with skill 12!" No you probably can`t. And you shouldn´t. Guys with skills like that deserve to kick your ass if they
come into melee with you. You don't see me challenging Jean Claude van Damme, do you? Or see the Dutch Karate Champion, whomever he is, issuing challenges to Chuck Norris? No, because if you do, you'll get your ass kicked. If you meet a guy like Lee on the streets, pull your gun, and blow him away, like the punk did. Don't go around proving you can fight, while you have a skill of four, since the odds are very strongly in Lee's favor.

And with that, Lee throws away his shotgun, and assumes a ready fighting stance. The punk looks around somewhat insecurely, torn between his desire to show off for the rest of the gang, and his desire for personal safety, by pulling his gun. In the end, his need to brag wins from his need for personal safety. He assumes a fighting stance, and the combat begins. Several passes later, the punk lies on the road, bleeding, bruised, and feeling rather stupid that he did not pull his gun. Slowly, his life ebbs away, since DocWagon is late again. Lee, his sister avenged, walks away, feeling better already.

Isn't this the ending you would like to see if YOUR sister had been raped?
THE RULES
1) When two combatants face off in melee, their target number is equal to his opponents martial arts skill.
2) If somebody has no skill in martial arts, they do NOT default to quickness. They roll one dice, and may only add HALF their Combat Pool , against a target number equal to the opponents skill plus two. A character with no skill would then still have a rough time hitting someone with skill one, even if he has an outstanding combat pool.
3) This rule only applies when both characters are fighting unarmed! If one character is fighting armed, the old rules apply. It's too difficult to make a rule that factors in every possible combination between melee weapons. The only things that are "allowed" are things like spiked gloves, or blades in your boots or something, since these weapons merely boost the prime martial art attack.
4) DM's option. If two characters face off in melee with exactly the same weapon, the skill with that weapon could be used as the target number. Two samurai facing off with a Katana could use the rule quite well, as could two guys who fight with Nunchaku's. However, if one guy has a katana, the other one has a nunchaku, use the old rule. I can't be bothered to think up a rule for every eventuality.
5) Make a distinction between Unarmed Combat and Martial Arts. Unarmed Combat also features such things as Cyberspurs etc.., which can be used with the rule. However, Unarmed Combat, when used with bare hands (like a martial artist does), is more like a form of streetfighting (ea., down and dirty). A martial artist is better than a streetfighter. In this case, if somebody with Unarmed Combat Skill 4 squares off against somebody with Martial Arts skill 4, either make the Unarmed Combat guy hit target number 5, or have the Martial Arts guy hit target number three (my personal option). This makes Martial Arts gain a small upper hand over unarmed combat, and forces characters a little bit to get that specialization in Martial Arts. Add or substract 1 point from the target number. (Of course, two Unarmed Combat guys have no problems.)
6) Drop the Martial Arts concentration. The shadowrun book says that you can concentrate in Martial Arts, and perhaps specialize in a unique fighting style, but only if both player and DM know the differences between different fighting styles. I will explain the differences a little later on, but drop the concentration. I have never, ever seen or heard from a martial artist who was skilled in more martial arts (which is what concentrating in Martial Arts actually is:Becoming skilled in various forms of martial arts.). Sure, Don "the Dragon" Wilson was both Muay Thai, Full Contact Kickboxing and Full Contact Karate World Champion, but the difference between those fighting styles is merely a matter of rules. The styles (for combat) are virtually the same. I have yet to see a martial artist who is a 5th dan Aikido - ka, and also a 5th dan Kung Fu Master. Or a 5th dan Kendo - ka.
If a character has Unarmed Combat skill 4, he can specialize in Martial Arts, causing his martial art skill to become 5 (And not six! See reason below), and his Unarmed Combat drops to skill 3.
The reason why I am not particularly thrilled at allowing Unarmed Combat 4 to specialize to Martial Art 6, is that you gain two free points. Although this is true with every other skill, I think that with the new rule of martial arts it is too heavy for too little skill points. That is why I am only allowing a one point upgrade from your Unarmed Combat skill. If a DM decides to use these rules, he is of course free to do whatever he wants. (It might be better to say, if you use the one point upgrade only, that you are banishing the martial arts specialization, and are allowing a concentration in a specific style. Whatever suits you best.

These rules will come into effect in the Tokyo thing I'm going to run, so make sure you understand what I've said here, and contact me if you have any questions.

One other thing which will be different in Neo Tokyo is that the Bushido code of Honor is still very prevalent in Japan in 2058. That means that unless you are prepared to lose honor, a challenge to Martial Arts combat is something which is not easily refused. The example of the punk blowing Lee's head off would cause him to be spurned by the rest of his gang, eventually leading to his exile from the gang. At the same time, the news of his dishonoring would follow him everywhere. In Japan, being dead is a lot preferable than being without honor.

This does not mean that if Joe Sad with his skill 2, is walking around the streets of Neo Tokyo, and The Samurai Pizza Cat with his martial arts skill 14 challenges him to combat that Joe is obligated to accept. Obviously being outclassed doesn't really blemish your honor, unlike the medieval era, where every challenge had to be accepted. If that rule would still be into account, the following would happen. A guy with a sad pistol, martial arts skill 8, meets a big guy with a HMG, martial arts skill 4. The pistol guy calls out the challenge, the big guy starts swearing and cursing, drops his HMG, and is forced into martial arts combat, in which he gets his ass kicked. No, the big guy hears the challenge, shouts "No thanks" back, and aims his cannon. Honor demands him to wait while his opponent gets ready, and then he blows the pistol guy away. Under no circumstance, however, will a challenger be shot while he is issuing a challenge. This is much the same as the Geneva Convention, that it is considered bad form to shoot at a guy waving a white flag. So it is possible to refuse a martial arts contest if you don't feel like it. Eventually, the higher you climb on the martial ladder, and the more widespread your fame becomes, your honor will start to suffer if you fail to respond to any challenges, but nobody gives a damn if Joe Sad the white belt karateka refuses to fight Hinzou the Mad. However, if Hinzou refuses a challenge from Joe Sad, his honor will fall like a comet. (Remember, Shadowrunners, that you will be Americans in Japan, and the Japanese feel that the Americans are without honor anyway. So don't expect many challenges to be issued to you. Defeating those who are without honor brings no honor to the one who does it.)
One exception to the challenge is that whenever a Physical Adept challenges another Physical Adept, the Adept is sworn to honor that challenge. This is part of the code by which the adept lives, and he cannot disobey that code. This is also true for American adepts!
THE DIFFERENT MARTIAL ARTS STYLES
I will now elaborate on the different martial arts styles that are (or could become) available in a typical shadowrun setting. Besides explaining a little what the martial art does, I will also give certain advantages and disadvantages to the martial art, which can or cannot be used in the game (DM's choice). Be advised that they will be used in Neo Tokyo. Among the advantages are possible bonuses the martial artist has when either attacking or defending. The distinction between attacking and defending is the simple distinction between who is first in a combat turn. For elaborate explanation, consult your Shadowrun manual. If a character specializes in an offensive martial art, he gains, for example, a -2 bonus to his target number. If he attacks someone with skill 5, the target number of five is brought back to three. But this is only valid when he is attacking, in other words, when he has the initiative over his opponent. If his opponent has initiative in 23, and he in 22, he gets no bonuses for the melee exchange in 23 (in which he is the defender), but he does get the -2 in 22 (when he is the attacker). The same is true for bonuses gained for studying a defensive martial art. You get the bonuses only when you are the defender, not when you are the attacker. There is no martial art that gives bonuses to both attack and defence, and there is no martial art that penalizes both, so don't worry. One advantage (some may call it a disadvantage) a specialist in defense has, is that he can hold his action until he is attacked, thus making sure he gets the bonus. The disadvantage, of course, is that if you win initiative, but do want your bonus, you have to delay until the action of your opponent..
An attacking specialist needs to win initiative in order to be the attacker (although even if his opponent is first, he will still be the attacker when his action comes up.) Note that the bonuses and penalties for attack and defence only apply to the character who is using the martial art. Your opponent has nothing to do with the fact that you have a defensive bonus of -3, he still has to hit your exact skill level for a target number. Also, you have nothing to do with your opponent's penalties and bonuses, you've got your own penalties and bonuses to deal with. So although the target number is (probably) modified for both sides, it is only because of their own martial art, not because of the opponent's martial art.

The disadvantages are much like the advantages. A defending style of martial arts has penalties for attacking, and vice versa. These penalties add to the target number you're trying to hit. An Aikido master trying to hit someone (when he himself is attacking) with skill 6, would have a target number 9 (Aikido gives a +3 for offensive actions.) However, if he was the defender against the same guy, his target number would be 1 (Aikido has a defense bonus of -5).

The one thing that can happen is that two defensive martial artist square off. They will both hold their actions, waiting for the other to attack, since neither wants to be the attacker. Take two Aikido - ka's with skill 8. The attacker would have to hit target number 11 (8+3), while the defender would have to hit target number 3 (8-5). So you can see neither is very anxious to attack. In this case, called a standoff, both parties may agree to forego their bonuses, and simply roll against target number 8, or the may break off the melee, and go back to shooting holes in one another.

Attacking martial artists do not have this problem, since they'll try their best to win initiative, and thus become the attacker.
The skill level required is the skill level you need to attain before receiving your bonuses. Note that the penalties are imposed immediately upon attaining any kind of rank within the martial art. Since Aikido requires a skill 8 (2nd Dan), before you gain your bonus of -5 to defense, an Aikido - ka with skill 6 would only have his +3 penalty to attack, and not his bonus of -5 to defense. (You could alter this rule in saying that you gain no bonuses or penalties as long as you've not attained the skill level required, but it is kind of odd that when your reach the level required for the bonus, in other words, have finally become so good as to be a full fledged martial artist, you are also penalized at that moment because: you are so good. But it is an option you can take.) Note that there are no further levels of bonuses or penalties you can attain. Your advancing skill in the martial art after you've: reached the skill level (also known as Master level), is expressed in the additional dice you receive, and the augmentation of your target number.
Damage, this seems pretty logical to me really, one martial art does more damage than the next one.
Final Bonuses, Only a few martial arts gain these bonuses. They may include additional dice for something, or an attribute increase of one point.
AIKIDO
Starting off with the most difficult martial art to master, and yet also one of the most beautiful and most effective martial arts to control, Aikido is the ability to use your opponent's aggressiveness and his form of attack against him, all with the minimum of effort on the part of the defender. Often used maneuvers include the throw, the block and lock, and the so called "Clothesline", in which the opponent's speed forces him to rush against the defender's outstretched arm, resulting in all sorts of funny maneuvers and tumbles on the attackers part. The difficulty in mastering Aikido is that one must have a full understanding of every possible form of attack, and how that attack may be used against it's initiator.
Advantages: a -5 to all defensive target numbers
Disadvantages: a +3 to all attacking target numbers
Master Skill Level: 8
Damage: Strength (M) Stun.
Final Bonuses: a +1 on reaction.
BOXING.:
Although many do not realize it, or even prefer to forget it, boxing is counted as a martial art. Boxing involves the use of one's fists to strike at the opponents head or chest, inflicting damage by the pure power behind the punch. Boxing knows no holds or throws, and does not feature any use of the legs. Boxing is relatively easy to master. Never underestimate a boxer's abilities, however.
Advantages: a -2 to all attacking target numbers
Disadvantages: a +2 to all defensive target numbers
Master Skill Level: 4
Damage: Strength+1 (M) Stun.
Final Bonuses: None
JUDO:
One of oldest martial arts in existence, Judo concentrates on gaining a hold on your opponent, and by using various throws, sweeps and sudden shifts in balance to get him down to the floor, where a Judo - ka then uses choke holds, and locks to keep him opponent down for the count. The main disadvantage of Judo, although it is not featured in this system, is that it is difficult to execute against an armed opponent. Advantages: a -3 to all defensive target numbers
Disadvantages. a +3 to all offensive target numbers
Master Skill Level: 4
Damage: Strength (L) Stun.
Final Bonuses: None.
JU – JITSUI:•
Somewhat equivalent to Judo, Ju - Jitsui features a little more lethal maneuvers, including a throw during which the arm is locked, and is thus jerked out of it's socket during the throw. Ju-Jitsui also uses various forms of kicks, and is thus somewhat more offensively oriented than Judo.
Advantages: a-3 to all defensive target numbers
Disadvantages: a +2 to all attacking target numbers
Master Skill Level: 6
Damage: Strength+3 (L) Stun
Final Bonuses: None
KARATE
Probably the most well known martial art in the world, karate's attacks are based around a single, powerful strike, be it either with the hand (most dominant), or the leg. Karate is mildly more offensive than defensive, and is fairly easy to master. Advantages: a -1 to all attacking target numbers
Disadvantages. a +1 to all defensive target numbers
Master Skill Level: 4
Damage: Strength+2 (M) Stun
Final Bonuses: None
K
KUNG-FU
Sometimes also known as "Chinese Boxing" Kung-Fu is one of the more deadly martial arts in the world. Maneuvers range from kicks to slashes, from blocks to dodges. One thing that marks Kung-Fu is the number of combinations executed in every attack, and the swiftness with which the whole routine is carried out.
Advantages: a -3 to all attacking target numbers
Disadvantages: a +1 to all defensive target numbers
Master Skill Level: 7
Damage: Strength+3 (M) Stun
Final Bonuses: +1 to Quickness rating.
MUAY THAI
More commonly known as kickboxing, Muay Thai is a deadly martial art, based solely around the principle of hurting your opponent until he begs for mercy, then hurting him some more. Muay Thai warriors use little combinations, instead lashing out with a powerful kick or blow every once so often. Muay Thai is one of the few martial arts that aggresively uses elbows and knees.
Advantages: a -3 to all attacking target numbers
Disadvantages: a +3 to all defensive target numbers
Master Skill Level: 6
Damage: Strength +4 (M) Stun
Final Bonuses: DM's option. Either add a +1 to Body, or allow a Muay Thai warrior to add his skill rating divided by 3 to his damage resistance tests for martial art melee. For example, a Muay Thai warrior with body 5 and skill 9 could either receive permanent body 6, or be allowed to add (9 divided by 3) = 3 dice to his resistance test vs. martial arts. (He would then roll 8 dice without any eventual Combat Pool.)

PENCAK SILAT
From the islands of Indonesia, Pencak Silat is arguably the deadliest martial art in the world. The whole style is based around getting rid of your opponent as quickly as possible, meanwhile making sure he'll never bother you again. Choke holds, legsweeps, slashes to vital areas, and pure, physical violence are the trademarks of the martial art that is said to have over fifteen hundred distinctive styles. Advantages: a -4 to all attacking target numbers
Disadvantages: a +2 to all defensive target numbers
Master Skill Level: 8
Damage: Strength (M) Physical (Yes, physical. For DM's who think this too heavy for melee, change it into Strength+3 (L) Physical, but keep it on physical!) Final Bonuses: a +1 to Reaction.
TAE KWONDO:
This beautiful to watch martial art hails from Korea, and is well known for it's amazing feats of dexterity, and for the fact that it almost solely uses kicks. Tae Kwondo warriors are very swift and agile, and can kick you in the face four times before you can say uncle. It is let down by a rather poor defense.
Advantages. a -3 to all attacking target numbers
Disadvantages: a +3 to all defensive target numbers
Master Skill Level: 6
Damage: Strength (M) Stun
Final Bonuses: a +1 to Quickness, and a 50% increase to all jumping activities.

One final bonus to all martial arts that can be allowed at the DM's option is to add one point of willpower whenever any martial artist reaches skill level 10.

These are all the martial arts I could be bothered to come up with. You are free to create your own, following the above mentioned guidelines. Just remember, I will check your martial art before I allow it, and it has to exist right now in 1994 (1995). So no Ryu martial arts, or Guile Sonic Booms, or Fatalities!

I'll see you in Tokyo, bye!
[QUOTE]
Hope you like it, though it isnt my rule so I cant claim credit.
DS

[toturi]

Martial Arts Rules are already available in the Cannon Companion.

[Fortune]

His original premise is flawed, because he overlooks the rule that states that a character can only use as many Pool dice in a test as he has in that particular skill.

Besides, a Combat Pool of 5 is really very damn low for a true melee dude!

[TheScamp]

He also assumes that Adepts can achieve high Combat skill ratings more easily than mundanes, which is also false. Well, unless you take into account Weapon Foci, but that's kind of beside the point. :)

[DarkShade]

yes but I personally dont like them very much as the bonuses/penalties they provide are small enough that they dont help roleplay..
ie the fact that say aikido is a really defensive style doesnt really show..
adfding dice suffers really fast from the law of diminishing returns.. ie for a skill 2 person, a +1 dice matters, for a 9 skill person.. well...

I do like the maneuves in the companion.. funny I had never read them and had just assumed the whole book was about weapons, armor and the so renowned weapon design rules..
*shug* it is a house rule, in that campaign martial arts, duels and such were important, in most srun campaigns <including my current one> they arent.

DS

[TheScamp]

I personally hate the MA rules in the CC; they add unrealistic and unnecessary complications to a melee system which was designed not to have them. Many of the maneuvers give advantages, such as nullification of reach, without regard to the opponent's ability. They're stinky like doodie.

[fourstring_samur...]

i kinda doubt the research into some of the martial arts, since the one on muay thai is WAY off.

Begin rant:

I train in Muay Thai four to five days a week, and have always used combonations in just about everything thing we do. the only time you really don't is when clenching. On the defensive it's a tad more common to use single attacks, since you're reacting to your opponent's attack and can't usually set up a series of attacks that quickly, but you're never taught to just "lash out". Even big moves like free knees (a knee where you're not holding onto your opponent) are almost always set up by punches or kicks. Muay thai techniques ARE more simple than other fighting techniques, but that's because muay thai is based on practicality, what works, and conditioning, not theory.

end rant.

*whew!

anyway, i think its going to be a LONG time before we see a detailed system that accurately represents advanced fighting.

edited for spelling and general crazyness.

[Nine-9]

I like the quote

"A martial artist is better than a streetfighter."

If ver the was a time for "LOL", this is it. In fact, I think you'll find the opposite is generally true outside of a sport martial art setting.

But without wanting to turn this into some kind of hideous real world martial arts rant, I do actually like his base concept of rolling to hit the opposing unarmed combat skill, it would mean at high levels of skill on each side one hit knockouts are relatively rare, whilst allowing two untrained fighters to potentialy KO each other with a single punch

[Wounded Ronin]

www.bullshido.com






In any case, with unarmed fights, offense usually has an advantage, even against an aikido dude.

If I had to fight someone, I'd much rather have to fight an aikido dude than a muay thai dude.


However, from a game mechanics point of view, making melee combat an opposed test seems to make sense. I'll bet that that's how it was before SR was published but the FASA decided to change it for better game balance.

EDIT:

[Solstice]

Utter rubbish. It d20izes MA system and makes MA combat less random and deadly. If you've been in a serious mix up you should know that anything can happen when two people go at each other 100%. I can't tell you how many times I've seen an underdog win with a lucky punch, or a supposed badass fall down.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yeah, that's right. In fact, the whole "Lee Bruce" reference is kind of ironic, because Bruce Lee fight scenes, with one person taking down an army of martial arts mooks, are one of those things that is a lot of fun to watch but which is sort of patently unrealistic.

EDIT: Psst! Solstice! I *am* the enemy within! :P


SECOND EDIT:

[fourstring_samur...]

[Critias]

So, what, you guys are just now noticing all this? The book's been out about five years now, hasn't it?

And why the surprise? Shocked and amazed that an RPG got the details of some martial arts wrong?

[Ol' Scratch]

Cripes. It's been five years? Ouch.

[Wounded Ronin]

[TheScamp]

[Critias]

Heheh, my bad. I thought all the actual martial art flavor-quotes were from CC.

[Wounded Ronin]

TheScamp: If you take a skill in Point Fighting, I'll let you default with the +2 to Unarmed Combat. :P



I also noticed that these house rules seem to completely nutride Silat.

Man, those TN mods for the various arts are, like, comedy theatre. :rotfl:

[TheScamp]

If you have a Combat Skill in Point Fighting, you're just as good in actual combat as a person with generic Unarmed at the same Rating. That's how the SR systems work.

You will do really, really well in point fighting tourneys, though. ;)

[Wounded Ronin]

As I reread it more carefully, I get more and more comedy mileage out of this...

[Solstice]

Im no expert but ahh from what ive read weren't most of the best fighters of all time crosstraining in more than one art which led them to new and unique systems with which to dominate? No one name springs to mind but I'm sure I'm right.

[Tanka]

[TheScamp]

I'm well aware of the differences between point and street fighting.

My point (pardon the pun) was that someone who is combat effective with the less-than-lethal techniques of point fighting is probably pretty good in a tournament. SR Combat Skill levels measure combat effectiveness, not amount of training. Thus, if someone had a Combat Skill of Point Fighting, they've found a way to make their Point Fighting techniques work in an actual fight.

[Ol' Scratch]

With the advent of the Martial Arts rules, Point Fighting would be a technique/maneuver, not a style. Alternatively it would be a Complimentary Knowledge Skill.

[Arethusa]

That's really a contradiction in terms. In the same way a modern kendo practitioner or fencer will get the ever loving shit kicked out of him with a real sword, a point fighter will lose in a real fight. This is like saying it's possible to adapt fighting with foam boffer weapons to reality, but this is patently untrue: the emphasis on speed over actually knowing how to adapt and hit is what makes a sport what it is. To adapt this to real fighting is to essentially stop point fighting and start actually fighting, at which point the name becomes a solid misnomer. Bit o' bullshido right there.

[edit]

Curse you, doctor. Curse you and your fast posting ways.

This post has been edited by Arethusa: Oct 21 2004, 01:35 AM