 Cut Adept material |
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 Oct 21 2004, 05:02 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650  |
ookay, when my players bitched I just pointed out the karma reduction for the group and explained that this was the downside...
I possibly would have killed my players if they had harped on the way you described. |
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Oct 21 2004, 05:05 PM
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#27
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Bah. It saves me time (no group bookkeepping and plannning) save's them the agravation of having to deal with group (unless they choose to do so) and since I altered initiation costs to keep initiation accessible to mages without groups, I've never actually encountered a downside to the rule.
You're right, the karma cost w/ a group is the upside to the group's downsides, but the players felt at the time that the downsides out weighed the upside so we made a house rule. That and the players were my housemates and fiancee so if I made their in game life hell, I had to hear about it all week. So, I just tried to be flexible :D |
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Oct 21 2004, 05:07 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
which brings up my other reason for playing almost exclusively online...
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Oct 21 2004, 05:12 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Yeah, that happened to us too. A whole bunch of us who played magicals worked out that shadowrunning magi had different needs etc to "normal" magicals, and started an initiating group dedicated to shadowmages. It didn't hurt that we were owed a couple favours from a free spirit from way back. |
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Oct 21 2004, 05:41 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,002 |
[QUOTE] Wow. Slippery slope much. |
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Oct 21 2004, 06:42 PM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Reductio ad absurdum, actually, which is a valid argument.
~J |
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Oct 21 2004, 07:02 PM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
only in certain contexts. this isn't really one of them. the proposition that GMs should tailor initiatory groups for their campaign does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that all gaming material should be made up by the GM. leaping to conclusions != reductio ad absurdum.
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Oct 21 2004, 07:10 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And throwing out a bunch of Latin != me giving a rat's ass either way.
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Oct 21 2004, 07:17 PM
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#34
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But the proposition that such material ought not be included simply because the GM can do it him/herself is properly refuted that way. It is similar to the argument that a car can excusably not include seats as the end-user can supply something similar themselves if desired. ~J |
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Oct 21 2004, 07:25 PM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the argument wasn't based on the idea that the GM can do it himself, it was based on the idea that the GM probably should do it himself, since the initiatory group has a direct impact on the characters.
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Oct 21 2004, 07:31 PM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
As opposed to any other rule in the game? Weapon stats don't have a direct impact on the characters? Edges and flaws don't have a direct impact on the characters? Spells and metamagic techniques don't have a direct impact on the characters?
Just because you prefer to create your own groups, that doesn't mean those groups described in the sourcebooks should be left up to the GM as well. Hell, *I* never use canonical groups and prefer to design my own. But that's just not the point. One day I may decide that I like one of the groups listed in a sourcebook and want to use it -- I shouldn't have to cook up my own rules anymore than I should have to cook up my own rules to use an Ares Predator or a Stunbolt spell. |
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Oct 21 2004, 07:37 PM
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#37
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Okay, that one convinced me :D Stats! Stats! :D
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Oct 21 2004, 07:43 PM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh, a Predator's stats don't directly affect the overall general direction your character takes, in his development. looking at SOTA:64, i don't see what other fluff i'd want removed, to include the stats/fluff for initiatory group. the important part of the initiatory groups--descriptions of who they are and what they do--are already there; dues costs, etc. are minor details.
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Oct 21 2004, 07:59 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Metamagic techniques do. Cyberware implants do. Edges and flaws do. So do most other rules in the game.
As for what could have been cut to make room, if other books are accurate, I'm sure there was some superflorous full-page art that could have been left out to make room. |
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Oct 21 2004, 08:10 PM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
ookay I would pay the extra for the 2 more pages it would require.
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Oct 21 2004, 08:26 PM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Funkenstein, if you're really going to critique the contents of a book try taking a look between the covers first. Let's put some of those comments in perspective. First and foremost, SOTA64 presents 28 pages of adept material. This is almost as much as all the previous references to adepts in SR canon in Grimoire, Grimoire 2, Awakenings and MitS combined. Second, a third of the overall wordcount is dedicated to rules. Third, the fiction material is divided up into the aspects of adepthood that were deemed most important to players and which lacked any kind of in character grounding in SR3, to wit:
Fourth, the rules section you seem to be deducing to be quite limited, actually includes:
Fifth, as some of the people on here have already noted, and I'd expect you would too if you had read the material, of the groups introduced only ExTSix and the Sisters are actually initiatory magical groups in the strictest sense, and others like Jamil Islamyah and the Alexa Group operate on entirely different levels and function as an umbrella for smaller groups/cells. This being the case the writers decided, taking into account the required formatting and amount of explanatory information as compared to its practical usefulness, that the wordcount could be put to better use detailing other rules. I stand 100% by that decision. There is nothing introduced I would drop to include those 2 or 3 sets of stats and their explanatory text. Note that when I said that the web supplement would include stats for all the groups, I was assuming the people interested had read the material and would realize it meant specific cells/groups within some of the umbrella "associations", as well as the couple of groups which are actually described as magical groups. Seems to me that it isn't very constructive to snipe about what isn't in the book, when you don't know either what is or how, within that context, the missing information might be indeed be less pertinent than the stuff that occupies that space. Finally, it's a poor writer who doesn't know he's going to have to cut some of his ideas from the very first day he's handed an assignment and told his target wordcount. From the very start, the Adept crew knew there was stuff even in our proposal which wasn't going to make it, both fiction and rules. It was necessary to pare things down to what we believed was essential. That's what made the book. We knew going in there were going to be mixed reactions to such an update (admittedly not on the level we've seen). There always is. You're never going to please everybody and the best you can hope for is to please most of your audience with the material the format allows. That was taken into account, whether it was a good or bad call remains to be seen. I've seen at least as many positive and even enthusiastic responses to the material that is there as I've seen negative ones. |
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Oct 21 2004, 08:32 PM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
That's not how it works, I honestly wish it was. You don't add 2 pages, you add 16 (varies depending on the printer) and you add another $3 or $4 to the price which many people already think is pretty high. |
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Oct 21 2004, 08:35 PM
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#43
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
They could go to a secure e-book format and cut a good deal of costs, add functioanlity for little cost and reach almost as wide a fan-base.
WotC has done so with the new book Frost burn something or other and that seems to work fine, uses Adobe-acrobat reader. |
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Oct 21 2004, 08:36 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
First, please don't point in my direction when replying to a general topic like that. I may have been one of the loudest voices in the thread, but I'm not the only (let alone the first -- that was you) to mention it.
Second, it doesn't matter that there's a lot of other rules included. It's like saying that because you gave stats for ten metamagic techniques out of the twelve described in Book X, people should be happy that they got those ten metamagic techniques at all. We're paying for source material, and ideally that source material should be complete, not half-assed products with missing material especially if that missing material wasn't an accident. Material being cut is a problem on your end, I realize that, but that doesn't mean people on our end should sit there and be content with it. Third, I've admitted several times that I haven't had a chance to look the material over myself yet and that I won't until I get it in the mail after a few more days. My comments have mostly been general in nature, provoked by comments others who have the book have made. Fourth, I'm positive that I'm going to find a ton of good stuff in the book. But, again, that doesn't change my opinion on any of the comments I've made in the thread thus far. |
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Oct 21 2004, 08:48 PM
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#45
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
price and game mechanics are integral to the concept of cyberware, etcetera. membership dues, etcetera, are kinda important, especially if they have particularly restrictive strictures. but the most important parts of an initiatory group are who they are and what they do. these parts are in SOTA:64.
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Oct 21 2004, 09:03 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
Dr. Funkenstein:
General comments are no good when discussing a particular book, unless they apply to that book. You have to read the book to decide whether the stats for those groups is an essential part of the book or not. A good comparison would be whether or not an adventure should include stats for each and every person you encounter in that adventure. Not everyone is essential, even though you might need the stats when the runner's decide to fight the janitor. Some things has to be left out and maintaining that balance is difficult, but I am quite sure that leaving the stats for adept groups out was the right decision. |
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Oct 21 2004, 09:37 PM
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#47
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I only pointed in your direction because I was hoping to inform you of what people who've read the book should already know and because of comments like:
and
While others did point to the fact they were missing, you've made assumptions about what is and isn't in the book (ie. a rule allowing GMs to enforce Ways in power development which is actually there) and it's actual relevance without reading the book. Would you have made the same comments knowing that only 2 of the 5 groups introduced in the fiction are actually magical groups in the strictest sense? And what if reading the fiction you actually found that most of those stats can easily be deduced from the material (which I won't say is the case)? Probably, and to a point I would agree. However given restraints relevance and usefulness is everything and this case, given that the groups presented are there for purposes beyond supplying characters with potential initiatory means - and given that a couple of them will prove rather hard to use in that capacity at all - saddling or boxing in the GM with hard stats for potential allies, foes or contacts is of relatively low importance especially when quite a bit of information and leeway is granted in the actual background for the GM to take these wherever he will (and even less so when you've just been told the relevant information is going to be offered up for free to anyone who really wants it). This was ultimately our call as authors, one which I don't in the least regret, which is why I was both explaining the context (mainly for your benefit since you hadn't read the material) and the reasons why such a call was made. That still doesn't make it the right decision and you are obviously entitled to complain, hell, everyone's entitled to complain and I'm not flinching from that one, but I'd rather they complain in full possession of the facts.
I was making a point as to what actually was in what I feel is a rules-heavy part of the book and also to what we thought was a priority (ie. "relatively important information") instead of those particular stats.
As I'm sure you'll agree not everyone's comments are well-informed (myself included). And general comments, while they may bear out, are prone to not taking into account the details. Personally, I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing your eventual comments or review of this book given some of your concerns in previous threads.
Agreed, everyone is entitled to their opinion just like I'm entitled to outline the background behind any given call. No one has to agree with me, but at least people won't be debating whether something was meant some way or another 10 years down the line. However knowing myself as I do and being tempted with continuing this debate into counterproductive territory, I will from this point on refrain from further explanations and comments on this or other adept threads, beyond answering specific questions which is what I originally set out to do.
Like I said above, I for one am going to be waiting to see your posts after you've read it. I'm hoping you do, but having read the book several times over by now, I can forsee some stuff you're definitely not going to like. |
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Oct 21 2004, 10:16 PM
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#48
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Sorry to derail the current topic drift, but physical adept groups can be a lot of fun to initiate with - get really drunk and go do extreme sports! :grinbig:
Guard 1: "Hey! Are those shadowrunners trying to breach our perimeter security by base-jumping?" Guard 2: <checks his watch> "Nah, those are the 'Hell's Angels' initiate group - they do this once a month." -Siege |
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Oct 21 2004, 10:38 PM
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#49
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Hey, if the group stats make it to the web page (and they better!), you can print them out and have them bound into the book when the pages start falling out.
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Oct 21 2004, 11:36 PM
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#50
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If the binding is anything like that of the rest of my Shadowrun books, that'll come in real handy in a decade or two.
~J |
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