 Helmets and Headshots, Rules for shooting someone with a helmet |
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  Oct 21 2004, 02:30 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,778  |
One favored tactic I see time and time again is the headshot. Players love to do it because they figure it's an unamored spot on a bad guy, and thus they get no benefit of ballistic protection, and particularly nasty GMs like to do it against PCs for the same reason. But what happens if either the NPCs or PCs are wearing a helmet? All too often I see GMs interpret the +1 bonus to ballistic armor as simply a plain old 1 when someone with a helmet takes a headshot. That doesn't seem right to me, because I've worn real-life ballistic helmets and they're entirely too heavy, hard, and rigid to only give you the protection of what basically amounts to cardboard. How do you feel this should be handled?
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Oct 21 2004, 02:33 PM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
<just twitches a bit>
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Oct 21 2004, 02:41 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 28-September 04 From: The Smoke Member No.: 6,709 |
I can see your point Signal. Armour in SR seems to be a composite factor which, in part, includes how much of the body the armour covers. This has to be the case else the armoured jacket is FAR too good a protective item :o)
So, I suppose you could say this doesn't work, but then again I use the modified version on the FAQ on the SR website. There's three options for called shots - hit a small target, bypass armour or increase damage. If someone's taking a +4 TN modifier to hit you in the head, then perhaps it's about right but then again it would be nice to do something about this rather cheesy game mechanic - beyond bone lacing, orthoskin and a helmet (of which there's 2 I can find). |
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Oct 21 2004, 02:49 PM
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#4
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Tell your players that if they can find a headshot in SR3, they can perform it, and not until.
~J |
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Oct 21 2004, 02:57 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
I believe a helmet is meant to be "+1" over the rest of the armor someone is wearing. As the OP points out, in RL, combat helmets are among the strongest armor soldiers and mercs wear, for fairly obvious reasons.
Sadly, this seems to have become our GM's favorite tactic against our players when he can't do a ton of damage otherwise. We got into a discussion on whether or not Form-Fit Lvl 3 armor includes head protection. The description says it includes a "hood", but it was ruled that face-shots (head shots from the front) are still fair game for the same +4 TN. |
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Oct 21 2004, 02:57 PM
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#6
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
I agree with you Signal. A character should get more than 1 point of protection against a head shot if a called shot is done to the head.
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Oct 21 2004, 03:15 PM
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#7
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Why would anyone call shot to the head when they can just declare a called shot to bypass armour?
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Oct 21 2004, 03:22 PM
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#8
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
No offense, but that's because it's a GM crutch IMHO.
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Oct 21 2004, 03:23 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 1,321 |
Probably because of the caveat that 'only armour in the location specifed counts against the attack', meaning against a target with an unarmoured head one can have their cake and eat it- getting the +1 Damage Level and negating any armour. If my players call a head-shot against a fully-armoured target, they get the choice of negating the armour or increasing their damage; if they go for the latter they face the full armour value (I believe that's 9 for a full suit of light milspec armour), teaching them that armour piercing ammunition is worth its weight in orichalcum when facing such well-equipped opponents. -JH. |
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Oct 21 2004, 03:25 PM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
we tend to ignore the helmet rules in SR3, and rule instead that a helmet offers the same amount of ballistic/impact that the base armor offers.
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Oct 21 2004, 03:37 PM
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#11
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Untrue. To call a shot to a lesser armoured portion of the target does not allow you to stage the Damage. You are still using Option 2 of Called Shot in the FAQ.
1, 2 or 3. You do not get to mix and match. |
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Oct 21 2004, 03:40 PM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I stick with the rules in the SR3 sourcebook. All of the bullshit and poorly thought out Called Shot rules in the FAQs/errata that completely ignore the abstract nature of the system are utterly meaningless to me, canon or not. If they're not going to respect the nature of their own system, I'm not going to respect their shitty tacked-on and broken rules.
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Oct 21 2004, 03:40 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Possibly because most people do not think exclusively— or even mostly— in terms of canon, which, as we all know, has little to nothing to do with real life. I'm with Funk on this one. |
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Oct 21 2004, 03:44 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
Well, to be fair to our GM (who's reading these boards, BTW :D ), the circumstance that was in play at the time involved a bunch of Mafia guys shooting one of our toughest chars (not me, BTW) with Assault rifles. The char in question had FormFit, Armor Jacket/Clothing, Adept Mystic Armor, a good Combat Pool and a fairly hefty Body score. The mafia guys were only barely getting through the layered armor (and yes, we know and use the rules about halving and penalties with overarmoring) and the player was consistently successful on staging it down. Because we were the aggressors here and had initial surprise and it wasn't their actual HQ, it wasn't really justified for the GM to whip out stuff heavier than Assault rifles and he probably didn't want us looting them off the dead capos anyway. |
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Oct 21 2004, 03:45 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
As I’ve posted elsewhere, I allow called shots to bypass armor at a range of Skill*.5 meters, allowing hold-outs to potentially pose a threat. I do have to toss my hat into the ring of people who think that the called shot to bypass armor is an awful rule (the called shot for extra damage is sufficiently penalized to be rare in my experience, anyway, and the called shot for special effect I like).
~J |
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Oct 21 2004, 03:47 PM
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#16
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The reason for the FAQ is the Called Shot passage in M & M that allows you to bypass Impact Armour for chemical delivery. Without that, then things were perfectly fine and dandy.
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Oct 21 2004, 03:50 PM
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#17
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Amen. Just modify the shooter's TN, add three to the power and 1 to the damage code of the shot and roll the dice. I explicitly forbid my players from saying that they're aiming for a specific portion of their target's body and then I tell them where they hit. Example: Sniper Sam is calling a shot with his nifty 10S rifle (picking numbers here, I don't have any specific rifle in mind). We'll say, for the purposes of this example, that he's at long range (base TN 6) and for some crazy reason we'll leave out smartlink 2 because it makes the numbers less easy but decides to call the shot (TN 10). He takes a simple action to aim (TN 9). Therefore, the shot's damage would be 13D with a final TN of 9. He makes the shot and the target doesn't dodge. Now it's up to the target's resistence test. There's a two options in this case (well, more than two but you'll see what I mean):
Since the SR armor/damage system is abstract (or random if you're using the M&M what-gets-stressed rules) then it's the job of the GM to describe hit and the job of the player to decide whether or not to call the shot. |
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Oct 21 2004, 04:01 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Where does the +3 Power come in? Sure you aren’t mixing it up with burst-fire?
~J |
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Oct 21 2004, 04:05 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
It doesn't come up in a normal combat. The combat system is abstract - no real room for head shots. Unless, as a previous poster has suggested, you describe serious/deadly results of a normal shot as a hit to something vital.
So what do you do when a special situation shows up? Play it by ear. If your face has slid up next to the target and has pulled a gun and has placed it to the back of the target's head, without anybody noticing, then this is not a combat situation, and the GM can rule the results any way he likes. The face's gun skill may not make a bit of difference in a situation such as this. Anybody can pull a trigger and hit a helpless target at contact range. The stats of the gun itself may or may not make a difference. GM call. |
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Oct 21 2004, 04:10 PM
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#20
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Whoops! House rule. We did that because we thought it helped called shots tend towards deadly. My bad. |
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Oct 21 2004, 04:13 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
So how exactly do we handle it in our games? I think keeping it abstract is best, but out of curiosity, how were you adjuticating it when I killed, what, 3 people with headshots in our last session? :P |
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Oct 21 2004, 04:20 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, look, the game has got to stay challenging. I mean, if you layer on all that armor and can stage away a lot of damage, and then you start to get all this karma, what's left to make you sweat saved for the called shot to the face with the barret? Besides, super duper special forces guys probably would aim for your head anyway. Didn't you play Rainbox Six? Tango down, heh heh heh. :rotfl: The moral is, be the guy who shoots first from a position of cover and concealment. :D |
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Oct 21 2004, 04:22 PM
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#23
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Because shooting first from a position of cover and concealment doesn't require broken rules that bypass armor? They're already being denied their Combat Pool, while you can put all of yours into the shot. Significantly more successes = death even if their armor stages the Power of the attack to 2. And the standard Called Shot rules effectively give you two free successes on your attack should you choose to use them (which, more often than not, isn't worth it).
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Oct 21 2004, 04:23 PM
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#24
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Yeah, the only time that doesn't work is with Mil-spec armor (base power of weapon < ballistic = richochet)
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Oct 21 2004, 04:24 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 28-September 04 From: The Smoke Member No.: 6,709 |
I'll just throw in here that I don't allow layering armour. In the case of Signal's circumstance, the PC gets 5/3 (plus mystic armour power) and should someone call a shot to a bodypart then I'll use the armour there. The only reason I allow my players to state the location is because of the caveat that allows called shots to lesser armoured parts of the target. A good hit is still a good hit, and get's described as such.
Will start tending away even more from this though. |
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