 Helmets and Headshots, Rules for shooting someone with a helmet |
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 Oct 21 2004, 04:37 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701  |
Well, to date, we've not had a single game session where at least 1 (sometimes more) player did not go to Serious. About 50% of our games has someone taking Deadly Overflow, so clearly we're still getting challenged. We haven't even gone against "Super Duper Special Forces guys"; this is just against Capos, security guards and gang punks so far. We've started a new arc involving critters and Insects though. Now if they start taking head-shots, then I think it's going too far, if for no other reason that it doesn't make sense in concept. |
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Oct 21 2004, 04:41 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The GM won't have to use called shots with Insects -- a F6 Male Mantid can roll 29 dice on a melee combat test, which is quite deadly enough even with a Damage Code of just 6M.
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Oct 21 2004, 05:04 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
haven't gone up against bugs, yet. five thousand shedim, yeah, but not bugs.
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Oct 21 2004, 05:06 PM
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#29
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
:eek: :eek: In three years of GMing I've only ever killed one player. I think I've wounded the players about a dozen times not counting drain. *shudder* sounds like an :evil: game. |
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Oct 21 2004, 05:22 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701 |
One, this is our GM's first campaign, and to his credit, I think he's coming up with solid stories under challenging circumstances of some flaky player attendance. Two, I'm the only player (I think) who's had substantial experience in previous Shadowrun campaigns, so we're battling player inexperience as well. I do think our game difficulty is a tad harsh, but that's as much me whining as a player than anything else. We haven't had a character go down at least, though at our current pace, it won't surprise me when one eventually does. But at least if/when the survivors reach any kind of affluence, they can justifiably say they weren't coddled on the way there. |
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Oct 21 2004, 05:23 PM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You may have thought you were performing headshots, but you were making called shots :P If you were at any point trying to bypass armor, I didn’t notice so they used armor anyway. The fact that they’re dead suggests it didn’t matter, though. ~J |
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Oct 21 2004, 05:25 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
where didja hide the body? |
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Oct 21 2004, 05:48 PM
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#33
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Fed it to pigs :grinbig: |
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Oct 21 2004, 06:14 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I try to have it be like that when I GM, but my players are too smart. They manage to avoid all the nasty things I have in store. Like, for example, once I had these monsters that had this special move where they could hit you with one of the drugs that gives you a lot of stun. Since they could do this repeatedly, the idea was that they could do it to someone and keep doing it until that person overflowed into deadly physical. But the PCs managed to avoid getting put in the position where that could happen, even though I completely mentally was planning on that happening to someone. The next game, I had them battling ghouls in pitch darkness. The plan was that if anyone so much as got hit in melee they would have to roll versus the Krieger strain, which is pretty nasty. But one PC had freaking ultrasound sight and super thermo vision and enhanced hearing, etc, and he was taking point. So I couldn't plausibly have the ghouls who were waiting behind corners and such succeed in their surprise attacks as the party came around the corner. Once he even did get engaged in melee but from sheer luck he rolled really well and the ghoul rolled really badly so he still won melee without taking a hit. There was also a part with sentry guns, a long fall, a vat of runny meat below, and 5 ghouls waiting for the PCs to get Knockbacked into the vat, but the same guy with the super senses also had the foresight to bring a grenade launcher, so he destroyed the sentry guns before they could knock half of the party into the infected goop. So the PCs were smart and had good attributes, and thus avoided the very significant danger. The last time that I had several D wounds occur in the party was a mission where the PCs got to command 30 soldiers in a fort while they were assaulted by 100 ninjas with AKs, sniper support, and mortar support. And that just became a slaughter because the people who were tactically really strong were either drunk or absent at the time, and so the party got sniped out and mortared. (BOOOM!) However, that one made me cry because I had to roll for 100 ninjas. And, like, a few years ago, I had a recurring villian who was an immortal taoist taichichuan master who cultivated immortality through sexual chi kung techniques such as "Drinking Jade Juices From Golden Pond". He was stats-wise like a vampire, meaning he could add +12 to all his physical attributes, but his only flaw was Essence Loss. Furthermore, I forgot how many dice it was, but since he was a centuries old taichichuan practitioner with a youthful body I think that his base skill dice was somewhere between 10 and 20. And on top of that he had at least 6 points of physad powers, I forgot what they were. Also, he had especially good regeneration, where he would regenerate under all circumstances no matter what unless someone specifically made called shot to chop off his head. And, like, in the final showdown I believe he had like 20 kungfu cultists to help him against the party. So, like, I forgot all the details, but the party quickly exploded all the followers and set fire to the bad guy's house. Then the bad guy came out to fight them, right? But since my players are smart people, they realized that even if he had a lot of dice, they could neutralize him with the Friends In Melee/Enemies in Melee mods. (I never use the advanced melee combat rules because I feel they are extremely silly.) So, like the whole party delayed so as to all be able to act in the same phase, even the people who sucked at fighting, and they all meleed him at once. And they all meleed in a particular order so that the last attack went to the classical samurai styled guy with the katana, who was able to make a called shot to decapitate (which he correctly guessed on his own) with the biggest TN bonus so that the called shot was plausible, and killed the immortal villain very quickly. I may have missed some of the details, but that's basically what happened. And there was relatively little injury, IIRC, from that battle. So once again, the PCs avoided a horrible tantric sex fate which was a very plausible fate under the circumstances by being intelligent. So, yeah....I try to be tough, like your GM, but usually the PCs are so smart it just dosen't work out. |
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Oct 21 2004, 06:38 PM
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#35
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I’ve never had that problem. I had a hitsquad attack the team with dartguns filled with knockout stuff and some gas grenades, and almost killed the team from the overflow to physical when I’d just been meaning to give them a different challenge.
~J |
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Oct 21 2004, 06:43 PM
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#36
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Umm.... :spin: |
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Oct 21 2004, 06:47 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I would argue that as long as one PC is able to drag everyone's body to safety anyway, D wounds don't matter too much. The system is set up so that there are a lot of safety nets you have to fall through before your character literally dies, such as the self stabilization roll and the bleedout time which can become pretty extensive for someone with a big Body score. Even the odds of losing a limb or something are kind of on the small side unless you have a terrible Body score. The big medical bills just serve as an incentive to take another job. :P
And failing all of that, there's always the Hand of God. With all that, you can't go wrong. That's the way I see it. |
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Oct 21 2004, 06:51 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I actually try to avoid having too much sexual stuff. Because if you spring it, or any shocking concept, too often, people get jaded and it loses its effect. So, IIRC, the only "sexual" villians I've had over 4+ years of gaming were: 1.) The tai chi guy described above 2.) 3 hentai tentacle monsters, which were also the things mentioned above 3.) A perverted decker who was actually very wussy and got pwned by the pair of female mages whom he was attempting to menace. He was more of a joke than anything. And that's all. Indeed, usually instead my concepts focus on ninjas. And, I mean, if were more intelligent and could mentally keep track of more things, there's a lot more I'd do with ordinary things to keep the players challenged. For example, every time someone got hit, whether it did damage or not, if I were smart I'd make them have to get their armor repaired, so as to tack on extra expenses to any risks they take. It's also an incentive to do what you're supposed to do all along and use range, cover, and concealment to shoot first and not get hit. And, the thing is that I don't have enough brainpower to keep track of too many NPCs (100 nearly identical ninjas almost killed me) but if I were more intelligent I'd make sure that the PCs often faced teams with very well thought out mages with strong combinations of Initiate powers in addition to carefully thought out samurais and physads, so that there would be a triple threat. But I'm not really smart enough with the rules or quick enough on the uptake, so often times I fail to put a sufficient magical hurting on the party combined with a physical challenge, since I don't really enjoy designing mages. If I did that, things would be a lot harder, but I just can't keep track of that much information. Like, for example, with the sentry gun story above....at the same time that those sentry guns were going, I also had the party be magically attacked by a ghoul mage. But it was only one mage and he had only like 3 spells or something. His stats weren't that impressive. But ideally there would have been several mages with intelligent combinations of spells and foci in addition to the sentry guns and the melee ghouls. I think that my lack of ability to keep track of many things at once really makes my GMing less interesting than it could be. For example, in my group of players, I have some people who are real experts at making the very best possible samurai/bioware characters, some people who are real experts at squeezing everything possible out of starting magical characters and what the most efficient arrangement of Force levels and attributes so as to have powerful drain-free casting, some people who can get really great equipment, etc. While I certainly understand what they are doing, whenever I make a character I'm just far too lazy to actually go through the sourcebooks with as much detail as is needed to make those types of characters. When I'm a player and not a GM, I usually just make a physad because it's mentally the easiest to create and be effective with. Even when I play D&D, I hate picking spells, so I always make either a vanilla fighter or a vanilla cleric. But what this means is that when it comes down to making challenging opposition for the PCs, I can't make high-octane samurai or mages. Only high-octane physads, really. And they aren't too tough when they're getting slammed on by a combination of magic, APDS rounds, and simultaneously being tag teamed by like 2 close combat experts. I have trouble making truly memorable and challenging opposition. I just don't think that I'd be able to write up a whole adventure and simultaneously sit down and create a really cool, say, mage with a fiberoptic periscope, who would be a worthy challenge towards the end. |
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Oct 21 2004, 07:17 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
say "D wounds don't matter" to any player of Awakened characters. i dare you.
when i run games, they're usually pretty easy on the characters. the one time i went all-out, i was showing a new player how her shapeshifter melee physad worked; i had a piasma jump her while she was strolling through the woods in fox form. the piasma got surprise, which is absurd if you've ever looked at a piasma's stats. i wasn't worried, though. it got got 4-5 successes on the melee test, bringing the shifter to D instantly--but shifters have regen, so this is a great time to show off how tough the character is, right? she rolled a fucking 1 on the regen test. |
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Oct 21 2004, 07:28 PM
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#40
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Wow, that's all? Uh, I've been playing (with a few breaks) since 1994, and we ain't had one "sexual" villain, Ghost forbid a hentai tentacle monster. But that's just what works for me and my group. YMMV quite a bit, apparently. Sex and all its associated baggage does come up, but not in a plot-central manner...that just ain't no fun. Not that I take any umbrage with your use of ninjas, they're nearly always appropriate. :D |
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Oct 21 2004, 08:10 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, grenades and drugs are really nasty. Stun drugs are nastier than physical damage because most kinds of armor don't apply towards making them easier to resist, and the drugs often clap on something like an additional +2 TN on top of wound mods just for the fun of it. Considering that D stun is just as defeated as D physical in most cases, stun based attacks can be a lot more horrific. Grenades will also ruin anyone's day. I mean, it would be pretty preposterous if a squad full of dedicated grenade flingers didn't utterly destroy the object of their wroth. Grenades are really deadly and are portrayed that way in the game as well. So, like, the solution in that situation would have been either to 1.) stay at a really far distance with cover, out of hand grenade range, and hopefully raising the TNs for launch grenades, or 2.) hide and delay at close range so that you can theoretically headshot all the bad guys when they appear. I mean, if someone went toe-to-toe with a bunch of grenade people, I'd expect a lot of defeated characters. |
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Oct 21 2004, 08:28 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,779 |
This came up in our group too. We actually emailed the shadowFAQ guys and this is what we got. It's rather long, but this is their "official" take on it.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:39:00 -0700 Cc: info@shadowrunrpg.com Subject: Re: Re: Shadowrun Called Shot to Helmets Hi Brian and Aaron, Oh, I'm so glad you guys are smart! There are a lot of folks that just don't see what you see, and I didn't want to confuse anyone by pointing it out. OK, here we go. There are two methods for this. First method: See Man and Machine, page 35, where it describes 5 locations for cyberlimb body plating (also called "Armor" for cyberlimbs) as Arms, Legs, Front Torso, Rear Torso, and Skull. It takes 5 points of body plating (armor) for the Skull to count as one overall point of armor for the whole body. Since the Armor Helmet and Secure Helmet both provide 1 overall point of ballistic armor for the whole body, they should count for at least an individual rating of 5 points, and no more than 9, as protection for the skull. So, the simple calculation of helmet rating for protection to the skull is at least 5 ballistic. If you wanted to average 5 and 9, you might decide 7 points of protection, but I don't think that either 5 or 7 is very precise. Second method: Assume we cover a character completely in a special material that I call "7 ballistic". Part of this material is formed as a helmet, part as worn armor. Assume that when the "7 ballistic" material is worn all over the body that it provides 7 points of ballistic armor. Anywhere your shot hits, the body is protected by 7 points of ballistic armor. Assume I take off the helmet. Now, how much overall armor protection does the character get? Let's say it's 6 points of overall protection. But if we somehow know that a shot is hitting the rear torso, we know that it's hitting "7 ballistic" armor, because "7 ballistic material" is on the rear torso. Overall the helmet provides 1 point of ballistic, but if we know that a shot is hitting the head, it's hitting the "7 ballistic material" and that's 7 points of protection. This "special material" I'm describing is actually the material of a suit of Medium Security Armor & Helmet. With this method, we make an evaluation of what the material rating would be if it covered the whole body. That's the rating we use if we know a shot is striking a body part protected by that material. We actually end of with two ways of calculating the protection of a Security Helmet this way. The first is calculating it with the lightest armor it's made to go with. In which case a 1/2 Security Helmet provides 7/6 protection to the head. The second is keeping track of what kind of suit the Security Helmet actually came with, so if it came with Heavy Security armor then the helmet provides 8/7 to the skull. You choose which feels better for your group. One might argue that a Security Helmet is more rigid than the rest of the suit, and thus provides more than 6 or 7 points of Impact protection, but I usually don't go that far. I hope this helps! Signed, ShadowFaq ----- Original Message ----- To: "ShadowFaq" <ShadowFaq@comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 7:32 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: Shadowrun Called Shot in Ranged Combat (fwd) > How do you determine the localized armor rating of, say a helmet? If the > helmet gives +1/+2 rating to a player's overall armor rating, how much > does it help his/her head in a called shot? The numbers logically can't be > the same... > > > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 05:44:09 -0700 > From: ShadowFaq <ShadowFaq@comcast.net> > Cc: info@shadowrunrpg.com > Subject: Re: Shadowrun Called Shot in Ranged Combat > > Hi Aaron, > Yes, the Cannon Companion has Called Shot rules for melee combat that > allows > you to use only the armor in the targeted location. There are also Called > Shot rules in Man and Machine (page 106) for ranged weapons that deliver > drugs (like Narcoject or Capsule rounds) which use only the armor in the > targeted location. > > The Shadowrun Faq (www.ShadowrunRPG.com/resources/faq.shtml) describes > Called Shot rules for general ranged weapons (like your pistol) that, as > an > option, lets you use only the armor in the targeted location. > > With these FAQ called shot rules, the player can choose one of the > following: > a) Use the called shot to raise the damage by one level, and apply all > armor > (7 in your example) > or > b) Use the called shot to *not* raise the damage level, but apply *only* > the > armor in the targeted location (1 in your example) > or > c) Use the called shot to achieve a particular objective. E.g. shooting a > tire on a vehicle, shooting out a headlight, or shooting the leg of a > fleeing suspect to keep him from running. In these cases extra successes > should not stage up damage to the overall vehicle or person, but should > instead be an indication of achieving better success with your particular > objective. > > Signed, > ShadowFaq > > ----- Original Message ----- > To: "ShadowFaq" <ShadowFaq@comcast.net> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 4:23 AM > Subject: Re: shadowrun cannon companion > > > lol ok heres another dilema.in a test game i wanted to > use a called shot to an armored head of a baddie.he > had and armor value of 7/7 (6/5+ helmet of +1/2).in > the cannon companion it losts for advanced melee > combat that armor for the targeted location > protects.in this case head IE the +1/2. > now heres my question.if with a pistol or other ranged > weapon when i target the head.what armor value would > it have?the +1 only or the full 7. > thanks > Aaron |
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Oct 21 2004, 09:07 PM
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#43
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Ah, that's a really good way to do it, one which I sincerely wish that the FAQ actually reflected. Applying the armor at a specific location rather than just arbitrarily bypassing armor completely is at least a balanced way of doing things. It may *partly* ruin the abstract nature of combat, but at least it's not so horribly unbalanced as the current Option 2 which allows you to completely bypass armor.
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Oct 21 2004, 09:27 PM
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#44
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The grenades weren't being thrown, they'd been planted in a room that the runners were staying in. The runners did worse than I'd expected on their Perception tests, and the gas was nastier than I had anticipated. The opposition itself had no grenades, only dartguns (I didn't screw up that badly).
~J |
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Oct 22 2004, 06:06 AM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
In my defense (I'm Lina's GM), I always shoot for the body first...it's when they get desperate they start aiming for the head. Second, I don't stage up the damage for head shots. I think I might start using that system Shadowfaq sent Orphan for figuring out helmet armor tho - and raise the head shot damage back up one. :vegm: It strikes me as fairly balanced - and definately better than the FAQ options. Also, the game where I learned how to play the GM I had was even more evil than me - he had several games with TPKs, and my mage never survived long enough to initiate. I use some of his tricks, but not all...which is why I haven't killed my players yet (and they're too smart for their own good). |
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