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> Recovering Essence?, Possible, or No?
Deamon_Knight
post Oct 24 2004, 12:47 AM
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I'm turning on the NooB blinkers here, but I've been wondering: Say I remove my 1 essence cyberlimb, do I get 1 essence back? Presumably so, the mechanic described in M&M, that the interaction of the nervous system and cyber interface cause Essence loss, once that interaction ends, does the bodies "holistic system" recover?

A practical example would be my poor Rigger who got a basic grade VCR-2 at 3 essence. After an amazingly succesfull first run :smiles:, my rigger is no longer poor, and tries to upgrade to a delta VCR-3 (1/2 of 5; 2.5 essence?). If I understand the Rules, you need only pay the difference when upgrading 'ware. So what if that results in Essence gain? Or better yet, my BTL addict Sammie decided its better to be a one-armed cripple than a cyberzombie, or Goul snacks.

I can't find anything in the rules that would forbid this, nor any rules that would explicitly permit it, so does anyone know?
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Oct 24 2004, 12:55 AM
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... I will find the page number, but for now:

They do not get it back. Ever. EVER!!!

They get a "slot" for the value of the essence hole, so your Rigger doesn't lower his essence down to 0.5 (-datajack) after the procedures. Instead he has 3(-datajack) essence with a 0.5 "hole" he can fill before lowering his real essence level.
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HMHVV Hunter
post Oct 24 2004, 12:59 AM
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The way I understand it, upgrading in that fashion creates a certain amount of "inert Essence space" that can be used.

Let me give you an example:

I have Wired Reflexes 3, which costs 5 Essence and brings my remaining Essence down to 1. Now, I upgrade it to alphaware, which costs only 4 Essence (reduced by 20%), so now I have 1 Essence left and 1 "inert" Essence left over from the upgrade. Now that means I can get, say, Muscle Replacement Rating 1 (cost: 1 Essence) installed and still have that 1 Essence point left over. If I got, say, MR Rating 1 and a Smartlink (cost: .5 Essence), I'd have .5 total Essence left.

See what i mean?
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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 24 2004, 01:01 AM
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Note that as of Man & Machine, this "Essence hole" only occurs if the proper Surgical Option is taken during an implant's removal.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Oct 24 2004, 01:03 AM
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Indeed.

It was more of a given back in SR1 and 2.
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RedmondLarry
post Oct 24 2004, 01:03 AM
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With standard rules, any removal of cyberware leaves an "essence hole", which any other piece of cyberware installed later can use up or partially use up.

For example, removing Wired Reflexes 2 (at 3 ess.)will leave a hole of 3 Essence. The character hasn't recovered the essence, however. Installing Wired Reflexes 3 (at 5 ess.) will use up that 3 point hole plus two more points of Essence.

With the optional surgery rules from Man and Machine, installing into an essence hole as part of an upgrade is almost automatic, but target numbers and rolls are required in a non-upgrade surgery to make use of an essence hole.

/Wow: so many replies in so short a time. We should run an online game while we're all here.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Oct 24 2004, 01:06 AM
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Not here...
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Deamon_Knight
post Oct 24 2004, 01:15 AM
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Holy burning Keyboards Batman, That was fast!

Uh, if anyone is playing an online game, my great regret is that I have never actually Played Shadowrun. I bought one of the books and have been trying to convince my group to try it, but i'm low man on That Totem. I'd consider running one myself, but shadowrun is complex, and ontop of that: I've never DMed before, and I'd rather NOT have the first exposure to this game tainted by my inexperince! Shadowrun looks so cool, I just wish I had a chance to check it out!
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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 24 2004, 01:26 AM
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Check out the Welcome to the Shadows forum here, or visit a site like Shadowland Six for online gaming.
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Eyeless Blond
post Oct 24 2004, 02:17 AM
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Hmm, now *here's* an interesting idea: what if it were possible to develop a way to recover Essence by spending Karma, much in the same way that the Awakened can recover Magic loss by initiating? Of course it would cost massive amounts of Karma and possibly cash as well, but it would allow mundanes to have a similar power curve to Awakened, something which is sorely lacking right now.
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Canid13
post Oct 24 2004, 02:20 AM
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Doesn't the genetech section of SOTA63 have something about recovering essence holes? I know it can remove Boosted Reflexes so perhaps. I've not got the book on me right now so I can't check.
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Nomad
post Oct 24 2004, 02:31 AM
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No.....no.....absoutely not......no

Essence should never be recovered.


But should Body Index return to 0 if bioware is removed? Given the nature of the enhancements and the fact that they utilize a seperate rating, it may possibly be allowed.
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toturi
post Oct 24 2004, 02:36 AM
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It only works for Boosted Reflexes and whether it works to restore Essense is really a GM call.
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Deamon_Knight
post Oct 24 2004, 03:05 AM
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My thought regarding this was that if Essence is as described in M&M, a reaction between Hardware and Nervous systen, once the offending material is excised, the nervous system is no longer disrupted.

If Essence is considered as a Game Mechanic, Essence primarily is used to limit Cyberware, and to make in the heavily chromed harder to effect with benifical magic. If i'm correct, removing cyberware to recoup essence shouldn't matter, as the Benifts that Essence as a game mechanic are trying to limit, the cyberware, is gone.

Remeber the NooB sign by my name if none of this makes sense!
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toturi
post Oct 24 2004, 03:39 AM
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Yes, but recovering Essense gives the PC more "defense" against critters with Essense Drain. Also recovering Essense opens up the sticky question of recovering Magic since almost certainly someone will bring up the connection between Essense and Magic.
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mfb
post Oct 24 2004, 03:46 AM
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i believe Funk got it backwards, but the surgery rules are arcane enough that i can't be sure. the way it reads to me, the Essence Slot surgery option is taken for the piece of cyberware being installed, not the one being removed. in other words, if you upgrade your Wired Reflexes 3 from basic to alpha grade, you'd do a normal surgery on the operation to remove the basic grade WR3, and use the Essence Slot option on the operation to implant the alpha grade WR3. this is from reading the Cyberware Removal implant surgery operation, and the Essence Slot option.
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Eyeless Blond
post Oct 24 2004, 05:14 AM
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QUOTE (toturi)
Yes, but recovering Essense gives the PC more "defense" against critters with Essense Drain. Also recovering Essense opens up the sticky question of recovering Magic since almost certainly someone will bring up the connection between Essense and Magic.

Well what I'm primarily going for here is allowing mundanes to have some sort of power curve that isn't available to Awakened, and Essence recovery seems like the best thing I can find. If it had any effect on Magic, it would have to lower it rather than raise it; we certainly don't need any more ways for Awakened to become more powerful.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Oct 24 2004, 05:32 AM
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How's this: A character may be mundane but pay priority A (or 30 bp) for the benefit or a robust soul. It will allow the completely mundane individual to recover from any sort of essens loss except currently implanted cyberware. Essense is restored in full points (or portions of full points if the difference between current essens and maximum available essense is less than 1) in a natural process that takes (post-recovery essense value rounded up) days.
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mfb
post Oct 24 2004, 05:41 AM
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i don't really understand how this allows mundanes to 'catch up' with Awakened characters. unless your character becomes addicted to drugs at some point, it's unlikely that he'll take essence loss that can't be used as an essence slot for other 'ware.

i also question the idea that mundanes really need to 'catch up' with Awakened characters at all. i'm playing a pretty badass adept, right now, and i'm at ~200 karma. i'm still lagging behind the street sam i partner with, and we share specialties--we're both experts at SMGs, melee, and sneakery. the sam, however, is quite a bit faster than i am, just as sneaky, better at SMGs and melee, and he's pretty good in a variety of other weapons and fields. he can soak more damage, he can dish out more damage, and his sensory suite tops my adept's. why, exactly, does the sam need a way to 'catch up' with me?

people get really hung up on the 'no upper limit' thing, with adepts and magic users. i submit for consideration the possibility that the point at which an Awakened character's ability to grow surpasses a mundane's is so far up the karma scale as to be irrelevant in most games.
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DrJest
post Oct 24 2004, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE
people get really hung up on the 'no upper limit' thing, with adepts and magic users. i submit for consideration the possibility that the point at which an Awakened character's ability to grow surpasses a mundane's is so far up the karma scale as to be irrelevant in most games.


Absolutely and totally agreed. This was also the point I tried to make in the Samurai vs Adept thread - sure, by the time a physad has 5 or 6 grades of initiation he'll exceed the samurai's capabilities, but come on, how long does that take?

The same applies to any of the Awakened characters. They simply aren't going to go stellar any time within the average game time frame unless you only play SR and for that matter do so several times a week.
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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 24 2004, 09:48 AM
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The big thing people do when arguing magic vs. mundane is constantly assume the magician (adept or standard) has the munched-out version of whatever power they need to compare to the mundane equivalence. The problem is, adepts don't get to have all of those powers simultaneously. Even with geasa, it's tough to get a strong mix of abilities even after several initiations.

Mundanes, and street sam-types in particular, can start the game kicking a ton of ass... and as the karma and cash start rolling in, they get to improve their mundane skills and improve their implants while the adept is busying gaining more adept powers. *That* is something a lot of people ignore, too -- adepts aren't the only ones who get a lot of bang out of their Karma.
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DrJest
post Oct 24 2004, 10:09 AM
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That's a good point, Doc, and you're right, most people don't look at that.

Take my gun kata physmage (Imp Ref 2, Imp Ability Pistols 2, Impr Senses Flare Comp & Low Light, Imp Ability Martial Arts 1, 1pt Magic Rating, Enhance Aim on a sustaining Focus). With his Pistols score of 6, he's rolling 8 dice at the same targets as the smartlinked sam. It's the only thing he does (powers-wise), but he does it well.

By the time I've spent the 34 karma (assuming group inititation with ordeal) to gain 3 initiate grades (picking up, say, Mystic Armour 2, Killing Hands (M) and 2 levels each of Improved Athletics and Improved Stealth to try and mitigate the one-trick-poniness of the character) the sam will have probably improved his cyberware with the cash we've earned AND put a couple points on two or three of his primary skills. I actually spent those 3 grades catching up to the sammie's starting abilities (assuming bone lacing (ceramic), retractable cyberspurs and say a couple of reflex recorders - the latter not an exact correlation, but since the sam will have had plenty of other stuff he did it'll do). Meanwhile he has probably matched my Pistols ability, the one thing I did better than him to start with, increased his secondary combat skill (probably hand to hand or automatics) and tricked himself out with new toys (34 Karma - allowing for Karma Pool deductions, that's probably around 6-7 runs, so the sam probably has between 50k-100k nuyen to spend on his new stuff. I could do a lot with that kind of cash :) )

No, I don't think the Awakened have such a huge advantage, myself.
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Cochise
post Oct 24 2004, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Note that as of Man & Machine, this "Essence hole" only occurs if the proper Surgical Option is taken during an implant's removal.

Nope (mfb correctly mentioned it already)

QUOTE (M&M p. 150)
Essence Slot(Implant, +2 Threshold):
[i]If the character previously had cyberware removed, a new implant with this option can be installed within the "Essence hole" left behind by the earlier implant ...

=> That option has to be taken when the new implant is implanted. The removal appearantly always leaves the "Essence hole", but it's the surgeon's job to actually use it when installing new ware ...

_____

QUOTE (Nomad)
But should Body Index return to 0 if bioware is removed?  Given the nature of the enhancements and the fact that they utilize a seperate rating, it may possibly be allowed.


By logic? Possibly ...
By the rules? No ... the existance of the Bio Index Slot surgical options tells a different story ...
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Just Jonny
post Oct 24 2004, 11:42 AM
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While I understand and agree that essence loss is ALWAYS permanent from a canon standpoint, I just can't agree from a common sense standpoint. The main reason? Vampires. While I agree that alterations of one's nature (i.e. cyberware) should result in permanent essence loss, if a character gets essence drained for 1-2 points by a vampire or somesuch, it just seems like common sense that they'd eventually recover. Now, by eventually I mean on a scale of months, but c'mon...spritually crippled by a light vampire bite? As a homerule in my game, a character heals one essence point due to HMHVV critter drains per month.
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Tanka
post Oct 24 2004, 11:54 AM
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Well, if the Vampire completely drains them (i.e. those cybered up kids with .01 Essence left), the Vampire can either make them a Vampire or let them die. There's no recovery there.

If they have, say, 4 Essence left and the Vampire takes 2... Well, that's too bad. They have 2 Essence and the remote possibility of being addicted to the feeling of it (as, according to myth, it feels damn good, some stories say "better than sex" good) and will go out of their way to get it again. (IIRC, there's a story somewhere about something like that. I'll have to scan through my books again and find it.)
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