 Shouldn't Sorcery Default to Intelligence? |
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 Oct 27 2004, 11:25 PM
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#51
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Immortal Elf  Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890  |
Uhm, Stumps, you're not quite getting what I was saying. Say you're defaulting to an Attribute. All your TNs are +4. So to hit a TN of 3 you actually have to roll a 7. In essence, an actual roll of a 4, 3, 2, and 1 is identical to a roll of a 5 for you. That's why I put it at 5 originally but then dropped it to 3 to be kind.
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Oct 27 2004, 11:27 PM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Your analogy is flawed as for spellcasting, the spell is your "bike" and the formula for casting it are the "wheels." The rider would be the spellcaster and the act of peddling would be the spellcasting. |
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Oct 27 2004, 11:31 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
And by that metaphor, the mage would take the time to learn the skill.
It is not "MAGIC!" and the notion of defaulting while casting a spell is not consistant with the very foundation of the tradition itself. |
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Oct 27 2004, 11:33 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
Without the rider the bike goes nowhere. Without the pedals the bike goes nowhere. Without the wheels the bike goes nowhere. EDIT: However, you are right, the analogy is flawed in that it doesn't accurately depict spellcasting, but the intent was to illustrate that without the integral elements the whole doesn't work (wheels and bikes, knowledge and magic, a keyboard and us "debating" over the internet :P) |
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Oct 27 2004, 11:33 PM
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#55
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And by that theory, no one can use any skill without learning the skill. So you should either use defaulting or you shouldn't. There's no reason despite your poor-attempts to "prove" otherwise that Sorcery and Conjuring are exceptions to the rules (other than that they are, illogically as they, exceptions to the rules). If you don't like the house rule, feel free not to use it.
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Oct 27 2004, 11:45 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
No Doc. That's not what I said. And my "poor attempts to 'prove' otherwise" is rather a poor attempt to describe the basics of magical theory.
Knowledge is integral to the act of working magic, in some form. However knowledge is not universally required of all skills. |
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Oct 28 2004, 12:01 AM
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#57
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If Knowledge was required, it would be Intelligence-linked. Sorcery is about willing an effect into being. Practically every description of it revolves around honing your will and focusing your emotion into the act. The only thing remotely intellectual about Sorcery comes from designing and, to a lesser extent, learning a spell... and that's still preserved.
I could then point to, oh, Computers, Electronics, and even Biotech as actual Intelligence-linked Knowledge-based skills that you can default with, too. |
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Oct 28 2004, 12:06 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Actually, our group has a house rule that all penalties apply for the rule of one. We do tone down the consequences of the botch in most cases. Doesn't it make sense that trying to do something you don't have a skill for in the dark while seriously wounded and beaten almost senseless should usually fail spectacularly no matter how high the defaulting attribute? edit: I forgot on difficult ground while running! |
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Oct 28 2004, 12:08 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
I guess that ties in with the too much karma pool thread. 8)
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Oct 28 2004, 12:21 AM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
It's Knowledge, with a captial K, and it has nothing to do with how intelligent a person is. If a person was dumb as a stump, but still had the Knowledge to guide their Will to create their desire, that person would still be capable of utilizing magic (or so the theory goes). And yes it is primarily the Will (with a capital W) that powers the act but without Knowledge there to channel the Will, the Will does nothing.
Think of Knowledge as to the working of Magic as tools are to the utilization of B/R skills. One (EDIT)usually(/EDIT) can't fix a computer without having a screwdriver handy. Happy Da9iel? :grinbig: |
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Oct 28 2004, 12:25 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
That's not true! I personally defaulted to my key chain (at a +4 of course) once to fix my truck. 8)
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Oct 28 2004, 12:34 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
You got jipped, :P yer only 'sposed to have a +2 for inadequate tools.
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Oct 28 2004, 12:53 AM
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#63
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
There are several ways in which Sorcery differers from every other skill. You allot dice from the skill to a function while still maintaining some dice for another. It is the only skill that has secondary karmatic expenditures (called spells) for full use. It can serve as a melee skill but only in certain situations. It is one of only two skills that cause Drain, and it requires a Magic Attribute above zero but does not use that as the linked Attribute. And there is the other issue. Are you born with a Magic Attribute? I think not since it is easy to spot such with Aura Reading while finding capable youths is described as difficult.
I derived the exact opposite opinion from reading Dragons of the Sixth World. Only the Earthdawn PDF implied dragons did not learn a Sorcery skill and spells, while Dot6W stated that dragons know all the spells listed in the books and more (paraphrased). In fact, only Flamethrower is innate to them. |
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Oct 28 2004, 12:55 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 19-September 04 From: Charleston, IL Member No.: 6,676 |
Well tjn your argument seems lacking because you keep bouncing between basing ALL Magic as knowledge first Active second. Since the PC would be a mage, they have some knowledge of Magic as they dabble and get instruction. The spellcasting skill implies that they have had some guidence or practice in the art. But that doesn't mean they can't feel the magic running through their veigns. It does not mean that they can't see the Astral (yes still magic here) with their astral perception without someone first teach Aura Reading. It does not REQUIRE an astral projection skill to actually project. So requiring the skill to actually cast spells (and let us not forget Conjuring is included here guys) would be pretty ballsy considering your whole description of how magic and magic theory works is completely opinion only with a few generic descriptions from the book to support the thesis.
I on the other hand still see no reason why EVERY other skill in the game defaults back to an attribute if you don't have the appropriate skill accept Magic which IS linked to the Willpower attribute. Now, to clear up everyone staging up botching for making it more difficult. The most important reason to default is if per se you had a skill of one. So botching should not change. The +4 is a pretty nasty bonus to the target number considering that most spells on average would be an 8 or higher (after +4 penalty) and you normally wouldn't have more than 6 dice (6 Willpower) to cast. That is pretty tough even for a lame and weak spell. Odds are you will just fizzle the spell and no harm done. Don't forget background count and other hindrances here. And don't forget that if you only get one success the oppossition will probably get more. So, defaulting wouldn't be over cheese. |
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Oct 28 2004, 12:58 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 19-September 04 From: Charleston, IL Member No.: 6,676 |
When I said implied it is because the side readings from Captain Chaos is usually thrown in for clues or role playing ideas. I figured everyone would take that as a given. Maybe I will be more clear next time. Otherwise NOTHING is truly known about how dragons deal magic and the book is VERY clear on that. |
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Oct 28 2004, 01:16 AM
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#66
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No, that would be Magic Background which is a Knowledge (with a capital K) Skill, as opposed to Sorcery or Conjuring which are Active Willpower-based Skills. They have very little to do with knowledge; they deal with your training in using those abilities. Casting a spell is very similar to using a utility in the Matrix on the surface. You can default to Computers (Sorcery) if you like, though you're going to suck when doing so, but no matter how trained or untrained you are you're not going to be able to use a Black Hammer utility (cast a Powerbolt spell) unless you have the utility (know the spell).
And I agree. However, Sorcery is used to perform the act of casting a spell. The spell formula is what grants the knowledge of how to cast the spell. Without learning the spell's formula, you don't have the knowledge to cast the spell. Your ability to default to Willpower to cast the spell you have to learn either way has no bearing on that. And yes, I believe Magic Background (or some other related skill) is what should be used to learn a spell's formula.
Another flawed analogy. The spell formula represents your tools. Casting the spell is the same as figuring out what you need to do to fix the the device; if you are trained in repairing it, you can do it with minimal fuss if you have the right tools (formula) but if you're not, you have to muddle your way through it but you still need the right tools (formula) to get the job done. Your B/R (Sorcery) Skill is your ability to use those tools, not the tools themselves. |
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Oct 28 2004, 02:21 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
:eek: :? :proof: I thought it was? Ok, looks like a simple Default to Will should solve things quite nicely without any risk of counter-balancing anything. *l* I'd like to see some Default-casting of spells going wrong though...I'm sure it could be pretty humerous. I get the nagging feeling that somethings being overlooked though...I hate that. |
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Oct 28 2004, 02:46 AM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Centering against penalties to offset the defaulting penalty, a mage can focus on increasing willpower and centering instead of sorcery, conjuring, centering, and maybe willpower. The willpower increase also makes drain easier to handle. If you don't allow spell pool on these tests, that just means they will have spell pool on defense at all times.
I haven't checked to see if it is a net karma savings. |
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Oct 28 2004, 03:01 AM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
/em takes a really big breath.
The hell are you saying here? I have never said ALL magic is knowledge. Knowledge is a part of the foundation and without it magic will not work. However it is but one aspect of that foundation.
That assumption is flat out wrong. See page 8 of MitS. Without instruction, without learning the skill, the potential Awakened do not have any instinctual knowledge they have the ability and in addition to that, there are some that coast through their lives without ever realizing that potential.
Astral Perception, and Astral Projection do not manipulate mana, therefore neither are truely acts of magic. Rather both of them are magical perceptions and are not directly involved in the working of magic (however they both will satisfy the Idenity requirement in order to manipulate mana).
If you want to get detailed, I could offer you Trismegistus or Bonisagus, The Kybalion or Corpus Hermeticum, or hell, you could even start with The Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley. These people are the forefathers of the Hermetic Tradition in SR, they (along with the Native American Shamans) are the inspiration of both IC and OOC development of magic in SR. I understand these resources aren't usually in their original language, and are often a touch hard to read, so I've tried to distill it to a more palitable morsel. Obviously I've failed, but I ask you to at least look into them before you declare yourself knower of all things magical.
Because magic doesn't work like EVERY other skill. To address Stumps: the its "MAGIC!" line is an excuse that many uneducated use to explain anything relating to magic. Magic, in SR and according to some rather... unique fellows in the real world, functions by it's own set of metaphysical laws. Hermetic Theory is based on causal relationships and nothing happens "just because it's magic." Just happens that what they identify as causal relationships aren't exactly what we identify as causal relationships. Least until the Sixth World. To the lovable Doc:
I see what you're saying, truely I do. However my problem comes from Sorcery's mirror, Conjuring. If learning the spell were enough to satisfy the condition of casting a spell, why then aren't there Rituals (note the capital R) Rituals that acted like spells in which they took Karma to learn and different variations for different spirits? To conjure a Forest Spirit would require a different set of pledges, bargins or cajolling then that of a Hearth Spirit. But that Knowledge (with a capital K) is locked within the Conjuring skill itself, and not within any ritual. Flip it back to Sorcery and the Conjuring skill leads me to believe the Sorcery skill acts in the same way to maniplate the mana.
If the Sorcery skill is the Ability (and I'm not sold on that idea just yet) then it would still be required to manipulate mana to achieve what the mage wishes to perform. Again, my problem is if the spell formula represents the Knowledge required to work mana, what works as the Knowledge on the conjuring side of the coin? |
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Oct 28 2004, 03:10 AM
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#70
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Ok, my simple example of my recent point. Much is in the list at the end, because I wanted to focus on easily quantified differences that are consistant regardless of character generation method.
base mage: human (RM = 9, RML = 6) start: 6 willpower 6 intelligence (6 sorcery) (6 conjuring) 6 artistic (knowledge) 6 centering A: raise all skills by 2 30 for sorcery, 30 for conjuring, 30 for centering, 22 for artistic B: raise willpower and centering skills by 2 45 for willpower, 22 artistic, 22 centering things not quantified: savings from not using BP in conjuring/sorcery, consequences of always using up centering on reducing the defaulting penalty, bonus to sorcery drain resistance for higher willpower, loss of potential drain resistance due to lack of sorcery dice |
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Oct 28 2004, 03:15 AM
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#71
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Every die spent on using Centering to offset the penalty they're voluntarily taking for not learning the spell is a penalty they're not offsetting without it (or using to help resist Drain, or gain extra dice, or any of the other uses of Centering). In effect you're exchanging the requirement for two seperate Skills (Centering and the secondary Skill) for the use of a single Skill (Sorcery) that's not even going to have a chance totally off-setting the difference unless you score 8 successes (thus needing a minimum Centering of 8). Not to mention wasting one initiation and the Karma spent there-on for the "priviledge." Against a TN of 4 (ha!), you need Centering 16 to come close to guaranteeing a total nullification of the defaulting penalty.
Then remove the current exception to the rules that allows magicians to assign Pool dice greater than the Skill dice they assign if you consider it a major problem. Since they have no Skill, they can't assign any Pool. Notice that defaulting also restricts the amount of Spell Pool that can be used with normal spellcasting. So even if you have Willpower 6 and Centering 16 (or Centering 6 and you get phenomenally lucky), a skilled Sorcerer will still outperform you with Sorcery 6. This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Oct 28 2004, 03:28 AM |
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Oct 28 2004, 04:07 AM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
tjn...I was joking. Take another breath. I'm not out to get you or pick arguments.
I'll stick to what I always say. I don't really care what the books say about this and that when it comes to house rules. Mainly this is because SR openly tells the reader, at the beginning of the book, to change things you don't like or think could work better. That means the entire book, not a part, is open for game. Including flavor, history, and the mechanics. In this case, a player doesn't think that something adds up, so they want to change it. What they appear to want is a check on the balance of adjusting it. Not really a "rationality check" |
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Oct 28 2004, 04:55 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
I apologize if I somehow gave the impression that I thought you were. I do not shy away from conflict in a debate, but I do try and hold my feelings for an individual person and my feelings for a spirited discussion seperate.
While that is a nice sentiment, I feel the need for all players to know what to expect when they come to the table, trumps that concern. If house rules are presented and agreed on before hand, it partially mitigates this factor, but does not absolve it completely as no set of house rules will cover every eventuallity. Therefore in my judgement, there needs to be a overwhelmingly compelling reason in order to deviate from canon. Such as the cyberlimb rules or vehicles being taken down by simple handguns.
I agree in definition, but in my opinion, the fact that it can be changed doesn't mean it should be changed.
And in this case, the player's assertion that magical skills should act like every other skill is inconsistant with the established reality. If the proposed change were to go through, it would effectively eliminate Hermetics as a valid tradition and require a rewrite of the magic section in order to make it consistant with the fact that magical skills are now just like any other skill. Now personally, that's a lot of work for a very small ruling. And on top of that, it would drastically violate the assumptions of any new player to the group, forcing them, in effect, to relearn everything they thought they knew about how magic in SR works. |
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Oct 28 2004, 05:24 AM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No it's not. Feel free to cite examples that state as much. Here's a few of my own. SR3 p. 84, Defaulting: "Sometimes a character wants to attempt an action but doesn't have the necessary skill. [...] Improvising when your character doesn't have the necessary skill is called defaulting." SR3 p. 177, Sorcery: "Mages control mana through a specific, practiced formula and effort of will. Shamans rarely cast spells the same way twice. Their magic comes from the intuitition, improvisation, and an understanding of the moment." SR3 p. 161, On the Manipulation of Mana: "Sorcery involves the intuitive manipulation of the mana field by the magician who shapes it in certain ways for certain effects." MitS p. 8, The Magical Child: "Some gifted children first display their powers spontaneously under stress." Note the added emphasis in the quotes. I think what you meant to say is that the rules are inconsistant with the established reality of the game. As far as game balance goes, there's nothing wrong with it. As far as in-game logic goes, there's nothing wrong with it. As far as the rules go... that's where the problem is.
To be crude, how the fuck so? You're desperately grasping at straws here.
Just the opposite. It requires only a few minor changes, mostly changing "Default: None" to "Default: Attribute" to the tiny little skill description and then removing the exception to the rules that states that magicians can apply Spell Pool to spell defense without applying any Sorcery dice. That's about it. Feel free to prove how it's unbalancing or requires an extensive rewrite of the system. |
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Oct 28 2004, 05:54 AM
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#75
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
As an additional comment, I get the feeling that those of you opposed to the idea (mechanically) don't use the defaulting rules that often. Defaulting to an attribute is vicious and definitely something that's a last-ditch effort.
To prove the point, compare two magicians. They are identical in all ways except one has Sorcery 6 and the other does not. They both have Willpower 6, Magic 6, and Spell Pool 6 and neither have any foci or other related abilities or tricks. Now let's say they're casting a Powerbolt on a dwarf with Body 4. They're both casting a Force 4 spell and doing so with a base of Moderate damage. Skilled Magician has a TN of 4 and can roll up to 12 dice for the test, granting him about 6 successes on average. Unskilled Slacker has a TN of 8 and can only roll 6 dice since his Spell Pool is useless to him, and thus is lucky if he gets even one success but we'll assume he managed one. The dwarf resists (TN 4 with Body 4) and gets two successes. Against the Skilled Magician, he just took a Deadly wound and goes down for the count. Against the Unskilled Slacker, he brushed it off without so uch as a scratch and returns fire on the jackass who just tried to fry him because he was a cheapstake who didn't want to pay someone to teach him how to cast spells effeciently.. Oh, how tragically broken. <rolls his eyes> |
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