 Vehicle Damage, Are they made of balsa wood? |
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 Oct 28 2004, 01:03 PM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 65 Joined: 3-April 02 Member No.: 2,507  |
For the most part I don't use the canon rules, instead I use a bit of common sense and play it something like this (and it only applies for firearms):
If the player shooting the car doesn't specify an actual location (wheel, window) I assume the round hits a non-critical area of the vehicle. Now depending on the damage I make up something accordingly eg, on a 'Deadly' the round rips straight through the car and out the roof. I have found this way gets the players thinking about how to try and stop the vehicle instead of letting a random set of dice rolls determine it for them. |
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Oct 28 2004, 02:56 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,700 |
am curious Dave how do you then handle vehicle armor.. ? do you use the staging rules at all?
DS |
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Oct 28 2004, 03:30 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 65 Joined: 3-April 02 Member No.: 2,507 |
I still use vehicle armour and staging just apply general damage in an abstract way. Let me try to explain with a couple of examples: Example 1: Player 1 declares he is merely shooting the oncoming car and rolls to hit. He comes up with the total damage dealt from his shot. I apply vehicle armour and (sometimes) roll vehicle body, the resulting damage roll is applied in a more abstract way; eg, "the round punches straight through the windscreen and lodges in the back seat." or "the round merely pings off the vehicle ricocheting into the night." I find this way is better for storytelling purposes (as the players are now on the lookout for a vehicle with a cracked windscreen) and now a vehicle can't be disabled with a random pistol shot. Example 2: Player 1 declares he is shooting the oncoming car going for the radiator and rolls to hit. He comes up with the total damage dealt from his shot. I stage down, apply ammo, apply vehicle armour and roll vehicle body, the resulting roll determines how much damage is done to the radiator (or whichever part was hit). If this was a critical part there is a chance the vehicle can be disabled. I find this way keeps the players thinking about the environment they are in and how they can affect it or how it affects them. I hope that makes some sense. |
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Oct 28 2004, 03:34 PM
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#29
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Uhm, except for the part about totally ignoring playing the game by not even bothering with a Body roll, that's pretty much how the game works as is. Same goes for regular combat; it's up to the GM to interpret the results and describe the scenario.
A Called Shot isn't required either; the player can just say he's shooting for the radiator without actually using a Called Shot (+4 TN, +1 Damage Level). The GM is just supposed to take that into account when he resolves the situation. |
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Oct 28 2004, 04:21 PM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 65 Joined: 3-April 02 Member No.: 2,507 |
I'm just skipping over, what I consider, pointless rolls. I decide on-the-fly if it's worth rolling in an effort to speed up combat or get on with the story.
Agreed, the GM could simply say the the single pistol round that did a 'deadly wound' damaged the radiator, therefore disabling the car. It all comes down to the way we play, I prefer my players tell me what they want to do as opposed to me telling them what they just did. |
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Oct 28 2004, 04:25 PM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
So in other words the players can’t predict what the results of their actions will be because the rules change on-the-fly?
~J |
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Oct 28 2004, 05:46 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 13-October 04 Member No.: 6,757 |
That's life though right? |
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Oct 28 2004, 06:07 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
With some degree of certainty, you can predict what the consequences of your actions will be. I drive my car off the bridge I die, I don't got to work I get fired, I don't pay taxes I get calls from the IRS, etc. Life is not a completely random crap-shoot, but that's just my philosophical opinion. :D |
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Oct 28 2004, 06:08 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It has nothing to do with the player predicting his chance of success. That's metagaming. The point is that it's not fair to change the rules on a whim when playing a game. It doesn't matter if it's a roleplaying game, a board game, or a card game -- it's still unfair and it's still cheating.
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Oct 28 2004, 06:30 PM
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#35
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I don’t mean perfectly predicting one’s odds by totaling the dice and TNs, I mean the reasonable certainty that if something happens the same way twice it will have the same or similar effects, regardless of whether it is important to the story one time and not the other. I can predict that if I set out to work at XYZZY time I will arrive on time. I can’t total up the odds, and there’s a possibility that I might not, but if I’m delayed because it’s important to the story that’s taking away my ability to reasonably judge results based on my actions.
~J |
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Oct 29 2004, 12:38 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
For comparison, let's look at the same thing with the official rules. The expert rolls 6 Pistol + 6 Combat Pool dice with a TN of 2 and nails 10 successes with a base Damage Code of 9M. The vehicle stages that down to 4L and rolls its (Body 3) 3 dice against a TN of 4, but it's pointless as the best possible result means the shooter wins with 7 net successes and stages the damage up to a Deadly blow. Now let's use the same scenario with a Joe Schmoe with Pistols 3 and no targeting device. He rolls his 3 Pistol + 3 Combat Pool dice against a TN of 3 and scores 5 successes. This time, the best possible roll for the vehicle means the shooter still wins by 2 net successes, staging the damage up to Moderate. Now lets look at Joe Schmoe with pistols 3, but he doesn't even bother to throw Combat Pool in. He rolls his 3 Pistol dice against a TN of 3 and scores 2 successes. Again, let's presume the Ford Americar succeeds with all 3 Body Dice. It still can't step the damage down to nothing, and takes a Light. Of course, those examples are average rolls for the shooters and maximum rolls for the Americar. Even Joe Schleb with Pistol skill 1 will usually inflict damage if he manages to hit the Americar. |
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Oct 29 2004, 05:31 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
I'm disagree on that one. I've had 3 cars that had significant radiator/cooling system damage, one from doing a Dukes of Hazard jump that knocked off the drain valve, one from a deer that cracked the radiator, and another when my water pump's pulley broke a bearing and leaked all of my coolant out. In all three cases I was able to drive another mile or two before my car overheated to critical levels. I had 20 combat turns or more before that became I had a problem, I'd say that that is probably an M or S wound to the vehicle. Also, in 2 of the three my bill for fixing the problem was in the $100 range. Judging from the worth of my cars that means that they took only an L. The pricing rules for fixing a vehicle are completely ridiculous, but then again, if you are in a 10 mph collision now you can do several hundred dollars worth of damage to your worthless plastic bumper. |
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Oct 29 2004, 09:38 AM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
try pulling that kind of limp when you are in the hotter parts of Oz. lost a good V6 that way
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Oct 29 2004, 10:47 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,700 |
hmm.. it is a problem then. I kind of like the 3x body dice houserule from a few posts back, though it does give problems with some vehicles<those with high body> especially with modified vehicles <rigger 3 rules>. dont remember if you could modify the body but if you could it will be abused..
the ad -hoc rules dave proposes seem too erratic for my taste.. I gm harshly & give players few breaks but for my players I have to be 100% consistent. if they shoot at a ford americar their inmediate expected result will be the same regardless of wether this is owned by joe ganger or miles lanier, or my personal idea on what is good for the plot.... ad-hoc is just not our thing. that said I really dont like cars being brought to deadly using one single shot from a pistol.. its a bit too much `last action hero`.. DS edit: about the car with no radiator.. new cars cant handle that old ones can, we have two and I managed to drive the old one <citroen bx.. aanncient> more than 35 km to the garage without any coolant fluid due to a leak<mind you, mostly highway, mostly downhill> |
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Oct 29 2004, 10:56 AM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You can't. Dikoting the vehicle adds 1 to Body, but that's not too bad considering the price. When you think about the kinds of vehicles that have high BOD ratings in R3, it only makes sense they are pretty damn hard to disable with non-AV weapons. Short list of chasses with 7+ BOD: Yachts, Tracked APCs, Airliners, Jetfighters, Cargo Helicopters, Heavy Tilt-Wing rotorcraft. (And no jokes about V-22s, thank you very much.) This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 29 2004, 11:07 AM |
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Oct 29 2004, 11:14 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
One thing I don't really understand, why is it harder to "shoot to kill" a truck than a compact car?
The cab has the same number of wheels, the bodywork is the same thickness and the engine is pretty much the same construction. Ok there may be a trailer, but who shoots the trailer to disable the cab? |
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Oct 29 2004, 11:42 AM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Why is it harder to shoot to kill a marathon runner than a couch potato? Because we have only one way attibute for vehicles that describes how large a vehicle is. All other things being equal, a larger vehicle is, on average, more difficult to disable than a smaller vehicle. In order not to have a separate "Toughness" attribute for vehicles, we use Body. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 29 2004, 11:44 AM |
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Oct 29 2004, 01:41 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
Excluding the +2 modifier for "target running" my house is on the couch potato. |
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Oct 29 2004, 01:50 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Um, if I refine the comparison to a Ford Ka and a Ford Transit Van, the only difference between these 2 vehicles is that the transit has a larger internal space. All the components that relate to "take-out" are the same size and toughness. In fact a transit van has much smaller/weaker components then many high-end sports vehicles.
So vehicle damage is knackered anyway you look at it. |
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Oct 29 2004, 01:56 PM
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#45
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Well, if you change vehicle body to solely reflect is ability to resist damage (and not be related to size) then you'll probably be doing fine...
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Oct 29 2004, 02:02 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
And what do we use to define size?
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Oct 29 2004, 02:07 PM
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#47
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Make a new stat: size
:D |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:24 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935 |
But all that extra space doesn't take damage from having bullets go through it. When you aren't making a called shot your shooting at the most opportune target with minimal aim. You may be shooting for the engine but your hitting a door, or a window, or a light.
Making a Called Shot effectively gives you two automatic success (a significant degree of success) if you manage to hold your aim on the part of the car your shooting at well enough to hit. [edit] However, according to the rules I can fire my 12 gauge(10D with a shot load) in to rear passanger door (1 success, no called shot) and cripple the vehicle (at least a Moderate wound).[/edit] |
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Oct 29 2004, 11:10 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
What book is this shotgun in? Even the SPAS is a 10S weapon, so if you have 1 success you're only going to be shooting it for 5M. |
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Oct 29 2004, 11:26 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935 |
There fixed it.
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