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 "best" adept powers?, working on new character |
 Oct 31 2004, 12:58 AM
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#51
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King of the Hobos  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127  |
Which is why you take them as vision mods and don't lose a thing. :)
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Oct 31 2004, 01:22 AM
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#52
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I was more referring to:
:) |
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Oct 31 2004, 04:49 AM
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#53
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, I'm not quite sure how one would go about combining Eye Lights with natural Low Light vision, since Eye Lights cannot be installed in natural eyes, IIRC.
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Oct 31 2004, 05:04 AM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Feel free to read over Improved Sense and point out where it states that it's incompatible with cyberware. Ditto for the cyberware. It's a magical improvement of your senses, not necessarily a magical improvement of your sensory organs though, as with most adept powers, it can be explained as such.
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Oct 31 2004, 05:23 AM
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#55
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's a bit of a stretch. Canon states that a person replacing their eyes loses all his natural vision augmentations, and an Adept's visual Powers are described as being natural.
Interesting munch though, if it does work as you say. :) |
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Oct 31 2004, 05:25 AM
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#56
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
While I would laugh and then stab anyone who suggested this for an actual game I was to run, it certainly looks like a prime candidate for Best Loop Hole '04. The closest it comes is saying for magic, bio, and cyber that have duplicate effects only the highest rated applies (which I think it says in MitS), IIRC. [edit] Thought Fortune brings up a good point, too. That's under cybereyes in SR3 right? This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Oct 31 2004, 05:27 AM |
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Oct 31 2004, 05:34 AM
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#57
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You need to re-read the canon material sometime, then. First, you're confusing a FAQ answer as canon, and even then the question was only asking which modifier you use for determining visibility modifiers. Second, as previously stated, the Improved Sense power makes no mention of an incompability with cyberware, the Cybereyes entry makes no mention of an incompatibility with Improved Sense, and even the section in M&M on Bioware and Magic doesn't makes any mention whatsoever about artificial Cat's Eyes being incompatible with Improved Sense. Just because you have a narrowly defined perception of how some adept powers work, that doesn't make it canonical nor the only means to describe how they work. Even a blind swordsman who had his eyes plucked out by an old rival could have Low-Light Vision (and/or other visual senses) and describe it as being some kind of mystical third-eye. He doesn't qualify for the Blind flaw, but it's still a 100% valid and 100% rules-legal concept. That's the charm of the adept concept. They get to explain their abilities as freely as they like as long as it works within the constraints of the power. This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Oct 31 2004, 05:41 AM |
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Oct 31 2004, 05:41 AM
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#58
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's your interpretation, but that doesn't necessarily make it canon.
According to canon, Eye lights cannot be installed in natural eyes. A troll who installs cybereyes loses his natural Thermographic Vision, just as an elf loses his natural Low Light when doing the same. As an Adept's Powers are described as being natural, a case can be made either way. |
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Oct 31 2004, 05:42 AM
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#59
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Once again, you need to re-read the canon material sometime. Especially based upon your last completely ignorant sentence... which I corrected you on with the very first thing in the last message.
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Oct 31 2004, 05:50 AM
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#60
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Either way, he'll still lose the ork's natural low-light vision, unless you use Doc's interpretation *and* the ork buys his low-light as an Improved Sense. In the end I suppose it's worth it. It even makes a kind of sense, as much as magic ever makes. After all, you don't restrict the adept from channeling his Killing Hands through a cyberlimb, do you? Or from taking Dermal Sheathing and combining it with Mystic Armor?
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Oct 31 2004, 07:30 AM
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#61
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Nice couple of edits! ;) If you note, I twice conceded that it could be interpreted in the manner you describe. You, as usual, stoop to heaping insults on anyone who even vaguely disagrees with one of your opinions. Have a nice day. :) |
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Oct 31 2004, 07:58 AM
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#62
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Good riddance.
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Oct 31 2004, 02:37 PM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 8-March 03 From: Northern Virginia Member No.: 4,223 |
Where does it say that? I've never seen such a thing. On the other hand, the expanded vision modifiers table in Man and Machine includes an entry for natural low light with eye lights. |
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Oct 31 2004, 04:30 PM
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#64
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
There is no such ruling. I suggested he re-read the material since he was making multiple mistakes, but apparently that was a grevious insult.
The only implant that I can remember that specifically mentions it can only be installed in a cybereye is the Basic Eye Laser System. There may be one or two others, but that's the only one I can remember at the moment. |
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Oct 31 2004, 05:28 PM
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#65
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Eye datajacks as well, although neither are really relevant here. Again, my only real point was that you can't get cybereyes (for the Essence savings) and retain your natural low-light vision. Though it has no real basis in the rules, I still don't think adepts should be allowed to get cybereyes without losing their magical improved vision, but that's mostly because I don't like adepts, and has nothing to do with the rules.
Anyway, back to the character: "I 4 (4-1)" I think you meant "I 4 (5-1)" here. "Proj Weapons/Bows 2 (1.0)" I agree with the people who said this isn't all that useful right now. Seven dice for shooting bows is fine until you hit around 50 Karma or so. I suggest 2 levels of Improved Stealth and either a couple more Improved Senses, Magic Sense, or Empathic Sense. Flare Comp is nice, as is Microscopic Vision if you ever plan on learning B&E, which you should considering you are the stealth man. I'd also listen to toturi's advice about shifting around your attritutes and skills a little. Honestly your skill in stealth is almost certainly going to be more important than your skill at negotiations; only rarely will you be able to negotiate better than a Johnson, who's usually highly specialized for just such a purpose, and Stealth'll actually keep you alive. |
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Oct 31 2004, 05:39 PM
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#66
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No argument from me there. For adept powers (all geased because I appreciate the flavor they add) for this type of character, I'd likely go Improved Projectile Weapons 4, Improved Stealth 4, Improved Reflexes 2, Quick Draw, Traceless Walk, and Improved Senses (any four of choice). But that's just me. I almost never bother with the Improved Physical Attributes; Attribute Boost is fun every now and again, but IPA is just a waste of magic. |
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Oct 31 2004, 05:39 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,110 |
I could be way off, and I'm half awake here, but;
Thermo and low light naturally occur in metahumans as a fact of biology right? Magically active or not, an elf can have lowlight, and a dwarf can have thermo, right? Physiological science. If the sense organ is removed, then so are it's inherant benefits... If I remember right, can't cyberwear be taken with you into the astral plane because it's paid for with essence? Which means your cyberlimb or your spurs or whatever aren't left behind when you go astral. Physad's abilities are explicitly unnatural They are supernatural or magic, aren't they? That do anything for anybody? I dunno... some random disjointed thoughts. |
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Oct 31 2004, 06:06 PM
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#68
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 5-October 04 Member No.: 6,729 |
Adept Vision/hearing etc. enhancements are considered natural. This according to the FAQ. I would rule that Cybereyes/Ears would replace the "natural" benefit that an adept receives from adept powers.
I know many people feel that an adept should stay mostly magical, or only accept some "light" cyber mods. But what about the full on Cyber Adept. Seems to me the rules were pretty explicitly written that awakened types can accept all except that last point of cyber/bioware and geasa themselves to maintain an equivalent full magic rating. :) An adept with 8 power points(geasa), 2 bioindex, and 4 pts in cyberware (essence 2) has a real magic attribute of 1 and with geasa functions like he has a magic of 6. Take a single, or even a few, talisman geasa (earings, necklace, or some more personal body piercings in areas that we all know and love). Make sure the adept powers are useful but not critical to overall character function, so that even if you lose the talismans you are still as functional as any other character with 4pts of cyberware and 2pts bioware. :love: That would be a pretty trick character to play. With all those options you could fill mutliple roles in a team, especially if you take Skillwires 3, 16mp, CED3 and Custom Activsofts with the cluster option - add EA and you get to roll up to 8 dice for those skill tests. :eek: What about magic loss you say? Well on a magic check 2d6 you would have to roll a 2 to lose that last point of magic - a 1 in 36 chance. I would hedge my bets by jacking body with Bonelacing Plastic, Dermal Sheath 1, and Suprathyroid - that should get a human to body 10. Wear good armor, and suffering a deadly wound should be pretty rare. :P Min maxing? Well we all do that to one degree or another in our own lives so I wont get into that discussion. :rotfl: Well rounded, heck yeah. A character like that could be a face, first or second rate sammy, B/E expert, etc. The trick is all the cool abilities and the skillwires. :grinbig: Character story. She hung with the gangs as a youth and started selecting the cyberware/bioware for its obvious benefits. Turns out she was a late bloomer on the magical charts and and when her almost defunct magical ability kicked in she embraced it. Turns out she always had this affinity for some old jewelry her grandmother left her and she never left home without it. It just didnt *feel* right not having all her jewelry in its appropriatly pierced areas, they had become something of a good luck charm to her. Low and behold she discovers that she had bonded the jewelry like a fetish in order to keep from losing all those magic points. You get the idea. Go ahead and tear it apart. :D |
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Oct 31 2004, 06:26 PM
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#69
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Once again, no, they're not. The question asked which modifier do you use for visual penalties, and the answer was Natural. Since you guys seem to have trouble reading that, I'll quote the exact entry below. FAQ: Does the adept power of Improved Sense (specifically, thermographic or low light vision) count as natural or augmented when determing visibility modifiers? Natural. |
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Oct 31 2004, 11:02 PM
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#70
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Combining adept abilities and cyberware can actually produce a tough combination, but there are two problems with a full-bore cybered adept:
First, when adepts accept a geas for magic loss, the game master is the one who selects it. The good news is that many GMs feel this is a silly rule and let adepts pick their geasa like any other awakened character. But most good GMs will still look carefully at geasa, since they are supposed to be an actual limitation on the character. Secondly, adepts and sammies are already the toughest two types of characters to create, point-wise. They need high physical Attributes but still need moderately good mental Attributes, and they also need a wide range of combat and other skills. When you are spending 25 points on being an adept, and 20-30 points on resources on top of that, you really spread yourself thin. The benefits are counteracted by your inferior skills and Attributes. It depends on the point allocation. For a 150-point game, that kind of character would actually be the smart choice. Trying to do it with 120 points would be pretty painful, though. |
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Nov 1 2004, 12:20 AM
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#71
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
M&M page 15:
As to whether an Adept loses his visual Powers after implanting cybereyes, barring a specific canon ruling, a case can be made either way, as I have said multiple times. As for an Adept's Powers being considered natural, my mistake. I don't know where I came up with that. My apologies for that, and also to the Doc for my tone last night. I need to learn not to post when tired and in the throws of a migraine. |
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Nov 1 2004, 12:32 AM
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#72
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That's the flavor text. You'll find similar comments in a few other cybereye accessories (such as Vision Magnification). It has to be specifically mentioned in the Game Effects description for it to be limited only to cybereyes, just like the Basic Eye Laser System and (thanks to Blondie) the Eye Datajack mentions it in their Game Effects. Same book, even. |
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Nov 1 2004, 12:53 AM
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#73
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
But isn't flavour text as Canon as game mechanics?
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Nov 1 2004, 01:09 AM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Not when it comes to the rules of the game. Read over Vision Magnification or the fluff vs. rules for Ruthenium Polymers sometime.
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Nov 1 2004, 01:51 AM
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#75
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the inability to mount a sensory system in a natural organ is a pretty important distinction. if the eyelight system was not intended to be mounted in a natural eye, the text should be errata'd to reflect that; the vague reference to cybereye mounting is not strong enough to be convincing. or, well, it's not strongly-worded enough to convince me; obviously, though, i'm more resistant to M&M's jedi mind tricks than Fortune is!
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