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> Shotguns, What constitutes "Regular" rounds?
Grimtooth
post Oct 28 2004, 05:29 PM
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What are considered regular rounds for shotguns? Shot or Slugs?

Also, are there dodge penalties for shotgun blasts? In my mind there shoud be a penalty on the dodge out beyond the first spread iteration.

This assumes a choke setting of 10.

1m wide path for 10m
2m wide path for 10m - Penalty
3m wide path for 10m - Penalty
4m wide path for 10m - Penalty

Anyone else looking at it this way?
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Nikoli
post Oct 28 2004, 05:32 PM
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Personally, I leave regular up to the player. you buy 50 rnds of shot ammo, just tell me how much iis shot and how much is slug
Haven't thought too much about the dodging mods but it makes sense on some levels
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 28 2004, 05:32 PM
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Regular rounds are slugs. Depending on GM, shot may be regular as well. There already is a penalty to dodge, equal to the TN mod on the shot from spread (generally topping out at +9 to dodge/-9 to hit).

~J
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Grimtooth
post Oct 28 2004, 05:33 PM
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Thanks folks!
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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 28 2004, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Regular rounds are slugs. Depending on GM, shot may be regular as well.

You got it backwards. Regular ammunition for a shotgun is shot, hence choke settings and the like. Actually you get to choose which one you want when you buy it, but the default assumption is you're using shot.
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Backgammon
post Oct 28 2004, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 28 2004, 11:32 AM)
Regular rounds are slugs. Depending on GM, shot may be regular as well.

You got it backwards. Regular ammunition for a shotgun is shot, hence choke settings and the like. Actually you get to choose which one you want when you buy it, but the default assumption is you're using shot.

Well, the default damage code for shotguns, the one listed when you look in the gear section, assumes slug rounds. Shot, aka flechette, add +1 Damage Code to that. So you could say that default is slugs.
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Slacker
post Oct 28 2004, 06:20 PM
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Actually, since most of the shotguns listed in the Cannon Companion show damage not being flechette and even those that do list flechette damage list it second, I would have to say that the standard ammo for shotguns in Shadowrun is slugs not shot shell.

However, I and every GM I have ever played with have just said that shot shell and slugs are purchased as standard ammo and the player just has to keep track of the number of each seperately, just like Nikoli said.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 28 2004, 06:22 PM
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SR3, p. 116: "Damage codes for weapons are calculated using regular ammunition."
SR3, p. 117: "Shotguns described in the Street Gear section (beginning on p. 277) fire slug rounds. Characters can load them with shot rounds [...]"
SR3, p. 278, Defiance T-250 and Enfield AS-7 have 10S and 8S Damage Codes in the tables, special mention is made in the descriptions of shot round use and the Damage Code with shot rounds.

I couldn't find the bit where it discusses the pricing of slugs vs shot rounds. In any case, the above clearly suggests that, at least for the non-pistol core book shotguns, slug = regular. The only difference that makes is for notekeeping.
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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 28 2004, 07:21 PM
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I s'pose I was misremembering then.
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Wireknight
post Oct 28 2004, 07:42 PM
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I think that since shotguns can only use shotgun rounds, they're limited, and all things limited count as being geased, so they should only be usable in the day or at night!

Oh, wait, I'm not insane, so I don't think that.

But, yeah, regular rounds for some shotguns are slugs. Shot rounds deal flechette type damage and have +1 to the damage level, which indicates that the Remington Roomsweeper employs shot rounds by default. I think that they should have used a slash-notation to show both potential damage types:

Defiance T-250(fullbarrel): 10S/10D(f)
Defiance T-250(sawed-off): 8S/8D(f)
Franchi SPAS-22: 10S/10D(f)
Mossberg CMDT: 8S/8D(f)
Remington Roomsweeper: 9M/9S(f)

Like that.
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ES_Riddle
post Oct 29 2004, 09:30 AM
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I've always just done it that slugs are "standard" ammo at 20¥/box and shot rounds are "flechette" that cost 100¥/box. You're getting the all of the benefits of flechette when you use shot (and more!) and should have to pay for it.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Oct 29 2004, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE (Wireknight)
Franchi SPAS-22: 10S/10D(f)

"What the FRAG is THAT?"

"It's a shotgun Sol"

"It's Fragging anti-aircraft gun VIN-CENT!"

"Yeah well, I wanna raise a few pulse's don't I"

:D :rotfl: :grinbig:
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Johnny the Bull
post Oct 29 2004, 12:47 PM
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QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
I've always just done it that slugs are "standard" ammo at 20¥/box and shot rounds are "flechette" that cost 100¥/box. You're getting the all of the benefits of flechette when you use shot (and more!) and should have to pay for it.

Could be that flechette is exactly that, and regular is either slug or tungsten shot.
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Crusher Bob
post Oct 29 2004, 01:35 PM
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If you can get tungsten shot for that cheap, you are probably better of cracking open the shotgun shells, melting the tungsten, and selling it as raw materials... Tungsten is sorta pricy stuff
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 29 2004, 02:36 PM
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It seems all tungsten other than some tungsten heavy metal powders is traded in very large amounts, with a price decided separately for each transaction. There is no spot price for tungsten to be found like there is for gold, platinum, silver etc. The closest you can get is the ~$10/lb of tungsten heavy powder (99%+ tungsten).

Malleable tungsten matrix shotgun ammunition goes for ~1.5-2x the price of steel shot these days, and probably has a pretty low tungsten% (since the allou is generally around 40% heavier than steel, around the same density as lead).

So there's no way it could be profitable to sell the raw tungsten from shotgun ammunition, even if you get the ammunition very, very cheap. Assuming 50% tungsten content, you'd need to get a 10-round box for ~$8 (you'll probably pay more for 10 rounds of steel shotgun ammunition) to break even, and that's assuming you can extract the tungsten for free.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Oct 29 2004, 02:40 PM
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Raygun
post Oct 30 2004, 02:12 AM
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US Patent 6112669: Projectiles made from tungsten and iron
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Catsnightmare
post Oct 30 2004, 03:02 AM
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QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
I've always just done it that slugs are "standard" ammo at 20¥/box and shot rounds are "flechette" that cost 100¥/box. You're getting the all of the benefits of flechette when you use shot (and more!) and should have to pay for it.

That's fucking insane! I don't know of ANY type of shot firing shotgun rounds that would cost that much! Not even the big 00 shot used for hunting deer.
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Arethusa
post Oct 30 2004, 04:45 AM
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QUOTE (Johnny the Bull)
QUOTE (ES_Riddle @ Oct 29 2004, 07:30 PM)
I've always just done it that slugs are "standard" ammo at 20¥/box and shot rounds are "flechette" that cost 100¥/box. You're getting the all of the benefits of flechette when you use shot (and more!) and should have to pay for it.

Could be that flechette is exactly that, and regular is either slug or tungsten shot.

If flechettes were flechettes, they'd punch through armor instead of breaking on it.

SR flechettes are not flechettes.

QUOTE (Catsnightmare)
That's fucking insane! I don't know of ANY type of shot firing shotgun rounds that would cost that much! Not even the big 00 shot used for hunting deer.


Ah, but real life shotguns can't cut anything in a 10m circle in half with a single shot.

SR shotguns are not shotguns

But, then again, anyone using a canon shotgun deserves to be beaten to death, so.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 30 2004, 04:48 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
But, then again, anyone using a canon shotgun deserves to be beaten to death, so.

Wonderful. Will you be delivering the beating yourself, or can I expect an underling?

~J
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Crusher Bob
post Oct 30 2004, 04:51 AM
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Oh no, Mr Kagetenshi your fatal beating has already been delivered. You just don't know it yet. Your brain eating zombie rampage will provide us with the much needed 'Halloween run' material. ;)
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 30 2004, 05:32 AM
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Yeah, right, like I haven't heard that one beforoaaaaaagh! *Stomp stomp stomp*

What? Brains? No, I said pains! I'm paining for chicken!

~J
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Vagabond
post Oct 30 2004, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I s'pose I was misremembering then.

Probably, Doc.

I suppose you were operating in that little place called reality, where shot is more common than a slug to put in a shotgun (at least among professionals that use them).

Something y'all may want to keep in mind, though. In reality it isn't wise to interchange the two too often in the same shotgun using the same barrell. Slugs travel further and more acurately in a barrell that's rifled (that is, grooves on the inside of the barrell make the projectile spin, for those non-gun affluent). However, buckshot tends to ruin the rifling after prolonged usage.

As a GM, I generally ask the player which he plans on using inside the shotgun more. If he says shot rounds, then I assume the barrell isn't rifled and slug arounds may not be as acurate. If he says slug, I assume the barrell is rifled.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 30 2004, 02:25 PM
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It actually ruins the rifling? I thought it just made the spread hopelessly wide.

~J
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Kremlin KOA
post Oct 30 2004, 02:45 PM
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and after you beat Kage to death I would be next on the list. Many have tried to kill me. I still live.
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mmu1
post Oct 30 2004, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 30 2004, 09:25 AM)
It actually ruins the rifling? I thought it just made the spread hopelessly wide.

~J

It shouldn't ruin the rifling, at least these days, because AFAIK the shot is packaged in a plastic sleeve that doesn't open up until it leaves the barrel.
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