[X] My Assistant

[mmu1]

The other thread asking about shotguns has made me wonder.

The first time I saw the shotgun rules I basically went "Whaaa...? Yeah, right." and determined never to use them as written.

I don't like the fact that they're almost farcially unrealistic, that with a 10S shotgun they at least seem overpowered, or the absurdity of staging up damage (or possibly even making a called shot) while hitting someone with a blast of pellets that's 2 meters wide... the whole thing just seems overly complicated and damn silly.

Should I ever run a game, I think I'll just drop the whole section and simply have buckshot act in a similar fashion rules-wise to a hollow-point bullet, and leave it at that.

How do you guys handle it?

[mfb]

we use the standard rules. it's much easier, if you dig most of your brain out with a spoon. i blame video games for the insane insanity that is the shotgun rules, honestly. DOOM, i think it was, first introduced the lamentably stupid concept of a shotgun that can hit multiple targets with its spread. a plast of pellets 2 meters, wide? you wouldn't be able to kill a cockroach with that, much less a human.

[Herald of Verjig...]

1) no called shots with weapons that spread
2) if the spread would cause a shotgun's power to reach zero, it becomes 3 with one less damage level, repeat as needed

[Kagetenshi]

At 90 meters with a SPAS-22 you too can be enjoying the –9 TN goodness.

First time I realized that, I was about to kill an entire group of mages with overflow from stun shells. Sadly (fortunately?) the game never did have another session.

~J

[mfb]

the way to handle shotguns in the most realistic manner would be to implement only 4 choke settings, listed below. note that the choke settings i'm listing aren't based on real numbers; they're simply based on a more realistic approach to how shotguns work. note that there is no mention of crap like 'hitting multiple targets'.

1: -1 TN at Extreme Ranges, -1 Damage Level at Long and Extreme Ranges.

2: -1 TN at Long and Extreme Ranges, -1 Damage Level at Long Range, -2 Damage Levels at Extreme Range

3: -1 TN at Long Range, -2 TN at Extreme Range, -1 Damage Level at Medium and Long Ranges, -2 Damage Levels at Extreme Range

4: -1 TN at Medium Range, -2 TN at Long and Extreme Ranges, -1 Damage Level at Medium Range, -2 Damage Levels at Long and Extreme Ranges.

[Ecclesiastes]

You mean there are people who actually use shot rounds?

[Grimtooth]

yeah.

Gangers who are low on money and given certain availability levels to abide by.

[Zen Shooter01]

I always just said that it expands once and only once. Otherwise, as we all know, a burstfire shotgun, choke 2, base damage 8S, lays down a circle of 9D devastation that's FIVE METERS across with -2 to the target number at a range of four meters.

Wait...except it's flechette damage, isn't it? Anyway, it's absurd.

[Austere Emancipa...]

A few threads on shotguns, full of house rule suggestions:
Correction Of "shotgun Sickness"
Shotguns and Choke
Shotguns and Choke Redux
You can find lots more where those came from with the Search function.

[Wireknight]

[Kagetenshi]

Shotgun stun shells are expressly called rubber pellets. Cannon Companion.

You’re right, for that particular trick I would have had to be at 70 meters and –7 TN, but with skill 7 and 7 points of combat pool, that would be an expected eleven successes from a base 2S Stun. Add possible Surprise to that…

Those of you using regular stuff can do 90/-9 as mentioned.

~J

[Wireknight]

Huh, rubber pellets? That's... par for the course. My mistake. I apologize.

But still, remember that you have to actually roll a seperate attack to damage each of the targets. I doubt you could roll 7 combat pool(or more than 1 combat pool, on average) against each target, if it's a decently large(6+ individuals) group.

[Critias]

[Kagetenshi]

Ah, hadn't noticed that. I think there were about six of them, and IIRC I had nine combat pool to throw, so half would been taking ~6 successes and the other half ~7 on average. Since there were no Trolls, that would have at the very least eaten all of their combat pool, at which point my second shot would have arrived…

~J

[The Jopp]

We came up with a somewhat functional solution. A character using a shotgun (shot) ignore the TN modification for shooting at ranges above short, so no +TN for shooting, just the standard 4+ and other modifications.

The power of the attack is reduced by -0 / -2 / -4 / -6 for each range setting. (HOW much power would really exist after 100 meters?)

Choke is a bit trickier, after all, shotguns DO have a choke setting and I wouldn't be surprised if they have a specialized barrel that have an built-in choke unlike shotguns of today, but to have between 1-10 is a bit extreme).

Choke 3 (standard): 5
Choke 2: 10 (Power INCREASE by +1/range due to more focused shot)
Choke 1: 20 (As above but with a +2/range)

So, a runner firing with a choke setting of 1 would have a very tight spread and hit a relatively small area and gain the following attack Short: +2 / Medium: 0 / Long: -2 / Extreme: -4

[ShadowGhost]

When using spread, if the power of a weapon is reduced to 0 (-1 for every meter of spread), it does no damage. Period.

And with using shot, you double either impact, or ballistic armor against the damage before rolling it off.

And, if you're shooting at multiple targets, the ones in back get extra dice (how man is determined by GM) to roll damage resistance with, to represent the fact that the folks in front are absorbing some of the shot.

However, it is stupid that the power goes down, and not the damage level, so at 100 M you're still doing deadly damage with 7 meters of spread.

We houserule it that for every 3 meters of spread, the damage level is reduced by one level, permanently, and cannot be staged up with extra successes. Net successes must still be rolled off by the defender before staging damage down.

And we houserule that you cannot call a shot with shot rounds.

This still means shotguns are deadly at close range, and can still do damage at extremem range, just nowhere near as much.

[Kagetenshi]

Shotguns are orders of magnitude more deadly at their extreme range than they are point-blank. With fourteen dice against TN 4 I'm getting seven successes and they're at (IIRC) +1 to dodge. With fourteen dice against TN 2 (full spread) I'm getting eleven successes and they're at +9 to dodge. Non-hardened armor is irrelevant since the power is already 2.

Want some modifiers? Minimal Light, no vision mods or even vismag. TN 10 for point-blank, while the full spread is at TN 4.

Incidentally, how many extra body dice isn't up to the GM. It's +1 per person betwixt gun and them. The GM can overrule that, but they can also make the moon blow up if they feel like it.

~J

[ShadowGhost]

[GoldenAri]

[Kagetenshi]

That's for point-blank, not max spread. I was comparing the two :)

~J

[toturi]

And they get an additional die for Damage Resistance for any other targets between them and the shotgun.

[Kagetenshi]

Single-target example, and we already cited that rule above.

~J

[toturi]

Ahhh, but every centimeter of dirt between you and the gun is a valid target!

[Wireknight]

I'd say that the TN# penalty to dodge a shotgun blast should top out at +4 or so. I mean, it's +4 TN# to dodge area-effect attacks like elemental manipulation spells and grenades. I doubt even a shotgun at full spread is going to be projecting as much doom and suffering as your average fragmentation grenade within blast radius.